Evolution: the Facts.

JonathanQuick: Please explain the paleontological record in terms of some theory other than the Theory of Evolution. No running off into biochemistry, no citing single examples of ideas that you don't understand and which therefore must be wrong. Please explain the fossil record using some theory other than evolution.

Until you can do that you've got nothing, as far as I'm (or any other paleontologist I've ever met is) concerned.
 
Each cell in an elephant is NOT "a colony of bacteria."

You mean you didn't know that?

A colony of bacteria inside a living cell is called an "infection."
A quadrillion infected cells would of course be fatal.


You were explained several times that Dawkins most certainly was referring to the endosymbiotic theory. You vehemently denied it, each time.

Well, here is a link to the 'climbing mount improbable', the passage in question is at the bottom of page 287 just after a passage dealing with, suprise, suprise, the endosymbiotic theory.

The context is really quite clear and, your vehemence lead me to strongly suspect you are just being dishonest about the whole point.
 
Theodosius Dobzhansky coined the terms "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" as everyone here SHOULD know, but unfortunately does not.

And everyone should know what the actual, real, scientific, definition of the term is.

It is 'evolution at the species level and beyond'.
Therefore, the multiple examples of speciation observed to qualify as 'macro-evolution'.

Now, creationists have used the term in a different definition, basically 'evolution I can still deny without being to obviously ridiculous'. But that is just an exercise in goalposts moving rather than the definition that everyone SHOULD know.
 
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Paulhoff, you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself. Unfortunately you are not.

Nota bene: Not ONE of the exceedingly self-styled *intellectuals* here condemned your hateful, intolerant attack, calling me ignorant.
Not one.



Dawkins made no reference to the gut. He stated that the elephant is COMPOSED, meaning its cells. You DO understand the difference between LIVING CELLS and excrement in the intestines, don't you?

It's really not that difficult.

You see, sir, a colony of bacteria INSIDE the BODY (not the intestine) is called an INFECTION.
The main count of bacteria is inside the gut, get over it.

Bacteria in the body out number that cells that you think are you, but that is numbers not the overall mass, and again get over it.

Look up symbiosis.

Paul

:) :) :)

 
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Bacteria in the body out number that cells that you think are you, but that is numbers not the overall mass, and again get over it.
So there's two ways to view ourselves as bacteria colonies: 1) we are mostly bacteria in the literal sense, and 2) the eucaryotic cell was formed due to endosymbiosis between various procaryotic cells.
 
Yep, yep...

But in that particular example, Dakwins is talking about the endosymbiotic origin of the eukaryotic cell...
 
You should pay more attention to what I say
I could say the same to you.

So you dismiss ME as an "internut" who "dislike(s) science."
Obviously, you didn't pay enough attention to what I said.

I said it was quite likely that, if you wrote to Dawkins with the same attitude you're showing here, someone else would class you as an internut.
I think that's actually a fair assessment, and one that someone who was actually open to listening to other people might take as being somewhat informative about how they were coming across.

I also said not that you dislike science, but that you were giving a pretty good impression of someone who did dislike science.
That is a perfectly fair comment to make, and to be honest, I think I'm in a much better position than you to comment on the impression you're definitely making on me, and that you're apparently making on other people here.

If you don't actually have a problem with science, you do seem to have a problem with presentation.

So my challenge to you is this:
Why on earth should I bother with your questions?
As it is, one of my amateur sidelines involves making things that need cooling, which makes the first question a bit of a no-brainer.
Your second question isn't even well-specified enough to be answerable.
As for your third question, since it's not particularly important to me, I couldn't answer off the top of my head, and it seems futile to just parrot an answer off the internet.

Now you claim that I "don't actually understand what" others are saying, and that I "dislike science." Such distortions as yours, and theirs, are extremely irresponsible and dishonest.
As I explained above, you really do seem to be giving a good impression of someone who dislikes science. It's not dishonest to say that, because that really is the impression you're giving.

As for not understanding Dawkins, you really do seem to have misunderstood the meaning of his quote - effectively about mammalian cells conceptually being colonies of bacteria.

This shows how very little you know about the socialist.
If you were being scientific, you wouldn't let your judgements about a biologist's political leanings get so much in the way of you attempting to understand his comments on biology

He is a malicious atheist. Even a fellow biologist and atheist said of his recent book, "It makes me ashamed to be an atheist."
If you were being scientific, you wouldn't let your judgements about a biologist's religious views get so much in the way of you attempting to understand his comments on biology

That Dawkins is celebrated, almost WORSHIPED by atheists speaks volumes.
Personally, I have only a limited interest in his views on religion. From what I've read, I far prefer his writings on biology.

There is even a hateful group so malicious and intolerant as to ridicule Christians everywhere by calling themselves worshipers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They replace the picture of God in Michelangelo's famous work of the Creation of Man with their spaghetti monster.
Which, as far as I see, has nothing to do with biology.

Are you a Christian? Do you know any? Any at all?
Actually, I do.
Fortunately for me, none of them seem to be much like you.
Not even the one who happens to be a professional churchman.
In fact, especially not him.
 
The ID crowd can't debunk evolution. However even when their so called rebuttle is in turn scientifically destroyed they continue to ask the same absurd questions and make the same straw man absurd statements they made before their statements were answered.

The creationist aka ID crowd loathes science and reason and logic. Its their enemy when they are trying to pust their superstitiopus agenda. Good examples of this is the moron Kirk cameron and his crockaduck. He's trying to debunk science with a childish sense of humor that makes me sick to watch. He has no science but he ignores evidence and trys to make a mockery of it.

Watching him and his cronys make me proud of my atheism.
 
Except when we start to consider the number of ways chirality CAN emerge in non-living systems.

"Here we report that a 32-residue peptide replicator, designed according to our earlier principles17, 18, 19, 20, is capable of efficiently amplifying homochiral products from a racemic mixture of peptide fragments through a chiroselective autocatalytic cycle. "

Their "32-residue peptide replicator" hardly constitutes emergence FROM non-living systems.

Biochemists doing refined experiments in modern labs are like the primordial ooze.... how, again?
 
JonathanQuick: Please explain the paleontological record in terms of some theory other than the Theory of Evolution. No running off into biochemistry, no citing single examples of ideas that you don't understand and which therefore must be wrong. Please explain the fossil record using some theory other than evolution.

Dinwar, please explain to all your fellow Darwinists here, (many of whom are tragically ignorant of how widespread the very WORD "Darwinist" is, and how many Darwinists, including the Infinitely Darwinian Richard Dawkins, employ the term) where you found written in any physics, or chemistry, or other science book that one must have an alternative "theory" before asking questions or challenging any tenets of the existing one? Where exactly do you find such stuff? Until you can do that, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to repeatedly, insistently, laboriously demand, and demand, and demand an *alternative* theory.

Until you can do that you've got nothing, as far as I'm (or any other paleontologist I've ever met is) concerned.

I never stated that I HAD "anything." Wherever did you get such a strange idea?

What YOU have is the Cambrian Explosion, yet to be explained.
What YOU have is "A>B>C>D", endlessly repeated and sometimes expanded upon, as Richard Dawkins has done, where he gets quite sophisticated with "A1>B1>C1>D1".

I never saw any such equation in any of my biochemistry classes. If you did, please cite the book and page where it may be seen.

Paleontologists have a dismal record of producing frauds, and interpreting things just so, as if one fossil from Mongolia is ancestral to another in Southern France.

No matter how many problems I would cite, you would merely insist on MY theory, without which Darwinists have the habit of stamping their feet, crossing their arms, and saying "No. No questions allowed."

That is not science.
 
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The creationist aka ID crowd loathes science and reason and logic.

Such condescension and misrepresentation as that above is widespread.
Anyone who is even reasonably educated should rebuke comments devoid of reason and logic, as that so clearly is. The author cannot spell "rebuttal," "push," "superstitious," "tries," or "cronies." But is he ever proud of his godless atheism. I also wonder why millions on the left were ever eager to brand George Bush as "stupid" for trivial gaffes, while excusing far worse by their own political cronies. Can anyone here explain such hypocrisy to me?
I mean in an honest manner?


Its their enemy when they are trying to pust their superstitiopus agenda. Good examples of this is the moron Kirk cameron and his crockaduck. He's trying to debunk science with a childish sense of humor that makes me sick to watch. He has no science but he ignores evidence and trys to make a mockery of it.

Watching him and his cronys make me proud of my atheism.

Do not lecture me on science, reason, and logic, sir.
 
And everyone should know what the actual, real, scientific, definition of the term is.

1. I made reference to micro-evolution and macro-evolution.
2. One of your Darwinist friends claimed that such terms were the work of "creationists" and I think he claimed that they were not scientific in nature.
3. To illuminate him, and many others here, I cited the originator of these TWO (2) terms, again micro-evolution and macro-evolution.
4. So NATURALLY, YOU reply on "what THE ACTUAL, REAL, SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION OF THE TERM is".

Let me make it clear, since you missed the point several times:

micro-evolution and macro-evolution are two (2) terms, not one.

5. When dozens of people continue to feign the advancement of science, generally using the most general, or even inaccurate of methods to do so, one person cannot possibly begin to respond. Your own inability to respond to such simple issues as Dobzhansky's two (2) terms makes this patently obvious.

Then too there is your proud atheist pal who cannot spell even simple words, but considers himself far above me in reason, logic, and science. Laughable and tragic, and you say not a word in response to him.
Not a word.

It is 'evolution at the species level and beyond'.
Therefore, the multiple examples of speciation observed to qualify as 'macro-evolution'.

There are, I believe, roughly twenty-six (26) definitions of species.
Darwinists move from one definition to another, and from one goalpost to another - anything to avoid discussions of the many unanswerable questions that keep biologists awake at night.

Now, creationists have used the term in a different definition, basically 'evolution I can still deny without being to obviously ridiculous'. But that is just an exercise in goalposts moving rather than the definition that everyone SHOULD know.

I am not a creationist. There you go again, making invalid assumptions, as Darwinists are always doing. Not once have I made such a claim.

Please quit moving the goalposts. I mention Darwinism, and you invoke "creationism" and "ID". Then your misspelling friend moves in and ..... writes of things superstitiopus.
 
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Dinwar, please explain to all your fellow Darwinists here, (many of whom are tragically ignorant of how widespread the very WORD "Darwinist" is, and how many Darwinists, including the Infinitely Darwinian Richard Dawkins, employ the term) where you found written in any physics, or chemistry, or other science book that one must have an alternative "theory" before asking questions or challenging any tenets of the existing one? Where exactly do you find such stuff? Until you can do that, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to repeatedly, insistently, laboriously demand, and demand, and demand an *alternative* theory.

[snip]

Evolution is the dominant paradigm in the biological sciences due to its explanatory power and it is showing no signs of crisis, nor are there any competing paradigms threatening to overturn it.

You young earth creationists* can only go on the attack because you know you haven't a narrative that has an ounce of explanatory or predictive power. Your paradigm was gradually overtaken through the 18th century. It may be painful but its time to rearrange your theological perspectives, as many other people of faith have done, into harmony with the fact that evolution happened and is happening.

* No, you haven't said you were a YEC, but the evolution deniers we get here never say what they believe, probably because what they do believe can only be argued from the authority of the bible.

ETA: If you want an argument from an authority who suggests a replacement paradigm should be provided, try Thomas Khun's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions".
 
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You young earth creationists* can only go on the attack because you know you haven't a narrative that has an ounce of explanatory or predictive power. Your paradigm was gradually overtaken through the 18th century. It may be painful but its time to rearrange your theological perspectives, as many other people of faith have done, into harmony with the fact that evolution happened and is happening.

* No, you haven't said you were a YEC, but the evolution deniers we get here never say what they believe, probably because what they do believe can only be argued from the authority of the bible.

This was good. You can ACTUALLY see evolution, there are processes directly observable that are due to evolution. So why would you want to deny it? Really, what do you believe in so badly that you have to deny an observable fact ?
 
This was good.

Really? You thought that was good?. It implicitly calls JonathanQuick a liar based on a universal negative for which no supporting evidence is provided. It turns a probabilistic argument into a certainty, it assumes beliefs based on the authority of the bible equals YEC; and it also quotes his post without addressing the point it makes. It was rubbish.
 
Really? You thought that was good?. It implicitly calls JonathanQuick a liar based on a universal negative for which no supporting evidence is provided. It turns a probabilistic argument into a certainty, it assumes beliefs based on the authority of the bible equals YEC; and it also quotes his post without addressing the point it makes. It was rubbish.

I concede that I failed to properly address JonathanQuick's post. Called him a liar? You will have to explain that one to me. Turned a probabilistic argument into a certainty? If you are talking about evolution well I think we can call that a provisional a fact, as we should any other equally well supported narrative.

While no one needs to present an alternative in order to criticise any given idea, I do think we have every right to demand an alternative from evolution deniers. These people (and yes I am making an assumption about the poster in question, but I'll get to that) do have an alternative idea, its just a very poor one. The motivation to attack evolution with a lot of tired and poor arguments, is to create the appearance of controversy in the eyes of those who have not examined the evidence for evolution in order to put their idea into the vacuum.

Another reason to call them out to present the alternative that they are seemingly too ashamed of is to see how they lower the bar (as they must) they currently place before evolution to their own idea

Further, the only way that a successful paradigm might be overturned would be by an idea that at least approached it in explanatory and predictive utility and no other ideas come close. Creation by divine fiat explains nothing.

Would I be wrong to say that most people who do argue that evolution is wrong based on the Bible are young earth creationists? It seems to me that only the young earth part is in doubt. JonathanQuick may not be a creationist of any strip but I am going with that assumption until I know otherwise.
 
Paleontologists have a dismal record of producing frauds, and interpreting things just so, as if one fossil from Mongolia is ancestral to another in Southern France.

Hang on. Why is this a problem? I don't know if you are referring to a specific case (if so, please elaborate), but why would the following be an impossible scenario:

Organism X lives in Southern Asia.

During a change in climate, conditions favourable to its northward spread occurs, and X happens to spread north until it is at the limits of where it could reproduce. This happens to be Mongolia.

Climate changes again, but more slowly, allowing the Mongolian populations to adapt to local conditions. Eventually, it is better adapted to the Mongolian conditions than to those of Southern Asia.

These conditions happen to be uniform over a large area, spreading from Ussuriland to Portugal, and X gradually comes to spread over this area. Populations in different parts of the range are variously isolated from each other, depending on geographical features and distance. Gradually, these populations adapt to local conditions.

Given sufficient time, the populations of the extreme edges of the range are sufficiently different for us to interpret this (whether morphologically, genetically, or by other methods) as a set of different, but closely related, species. Perhaps one in Southern France is named species X1, the one in Ussuriland and Mongolia X2 and the one in Southern Asia X3.

After having found fossils of all three, as well as other populations, deemed to be intermediate or otherwise related to the group, and analysing them genetically, we feel confident enough in our data to publish them, employing the scenario outlined above.

What part of that is actually impossible? We know that organisms are capable of extending their ranges. We know that organisms, given time, may spread over very large distances, and even, depending on their mode of migration, form disjunct ranges. We know that, again given time, organisms tend to adapt to their local environment (if necessary). We know that is it possible for two allopatric populations to become reproductively isolated from each other -- even for sympatric populations to become effectively reproductively isolated from each other. We know that when this happens, and the isolation is sufficiently complete, adaptations in one part of an organism's range will be independent of adaptations in another part, whether this part is disjunct or not. We know that the local environment of different parts of a given organism's range may be slightly or substantially different.

Where does the impossibility come in? I certainly cannot see it.

There are, I believe, roughly twenty-six (26) definitions of species.

A former PhD student here at my department studied this and claimed that he could identify 37 distinct ones (this was about three years ago, I think), although many of them are extremely similar and perhaps better seen as variants of the same concept. Possibly, if these variants are lumped together, your number is more or less accurate.

Darwinists move from one definition to another, and from one goalpost to another - anything to avoid discussions of the many unanswerable questions that keep biologists awake at night.

Of course we do (1), as the concept of "species" is elusive, and we still haven't found a definition that fits all known organisms. Personally, I think de Queiroz is perhaps closest to getting a genuinely universal one but we're not there yet.

As a working biologist, I would rather have different species concepts for different groups of organisms, than trying to apply the same (by necessity arbitrary) standards equally to all groups of organisms. Doing so would create more problems than it solves, and switching between different species concepts is generally not a problem in biology, as long as you are clear about what concept you are applying to your group.

Naturally, even people working on the same group of organisms will have different ideas about where to draw the lines and what criteria to use and so on, but this is very rarely a real problem. I was in precisely one of these discussions the other day, when I proposed to synonymise two species because they are genetically identical but morphologically distinct. A colleague in New Zealand disagreed, and I simply outlined my reasoning for why I thought they should be the same, despite the considerable differences in morphology, and even though we still don't agree, it isn't a problem.

---
(1) I am a professional biologist, so I get to use "we" proudly. I might also have no problems being called a "Darwinist", provided the term is adequately explained first. As long as you don't call me an Eichlerist (if he wasn't already dead, I might have wished him to be so that his silliness would stop; but this is a digression).
 
I concede that I failed to properly address JonathanQuick's post.

Thanks

Called him a liar? You will have to explain that one to me.

JohnathanQuick clearly states he is not a Creationist.

I am not a creationist. There you go again, making invalid assumptions, as Darwinists are always doing. Not once have I made such a claim.

You quote one of his posts, and refer to "You young earth creationists", indicating you regard him as a YEC. I find it implausible that you think he's made his claim accidently or without intent to deceive, so I conclude you're implying he's a liar.


Turned a probabilistic argument into a certainty? If you are talking about evolution well I think we can call that a provisional a fact, as we should any other equally well supported narrative.

No, I'm talking about this:

the evolution deniers we get here never say what they believe, probably because what they do believe can only be argued from the authority of the bible.

You're argument in the footnote is expressed with a degree of uncertainty to it, yet in the main text "You young earth creationists" ,you're sufficiently certain of the conclusion to imply he's a liar.


While no one needs to present an alternative in order to criticise any given idea, I do think we have every right to demand an alternative from evolution deniers.

This looks like special pleading - why is evolution so "protected"?

These people (and yes I am making an assumption about the poster in question, but I'll get to that) do have an alternative idea, its just a very poor one. The motivation to attack evolution with a lot of tired and poor arguments, is to create the appearance of controversy in the eyes of those who have not examined the evidence for evolution in order to put their idea into the vacuum.

Creationists may have an alternative. That doesn't mean that those without an alternative can have one demanded of them before they can criticise evolution.

Another reason to call them out to present the alternative that they are seemingly too ashamed of is to see how they lower the bar (as they must) they currently place before evolution to their own idea

Further, the only way that a successful paradigm might be overturned would be by an idea that at least approached it in explanatory and predictive utility and no other ideas come close. Creation by divine fiat explains nothing.

No-one is arguing that there aren't reasons for calling Creationists out. Merely that not presenting an alternative is an adequate reason for dismissing criticisms of evolution.

Would I be wrong to say that most people who do argue that evolution is wrong based on the Bible are young earth creationists?
I don't think so (that you're wrong I mean). Please demonstrate that that has any relevance to JonathanQuick's points.

It seems to me that only the young earth part is in doubt. JonathanQuick may not be a creationist of any strip but I am going with that assumption until I know otherwise.

You're free to assume what you like. I regard the assumption as unsupported (at this stage).
 
Really? You thought that was good?. It implicitly calls JonathanQuick a liar based on a universal negative for which no supporting evidence is provided. It turns a probabilistic argument into a certainty, it assumes beliefs based on the authority of the bible equals YEC; and it also quotes his post without addressing the point it makes. It was rubbish.

Excellent, My Lady. Truly excellent, and for these reasons:

1. You had the temerity, the courage to go against the majority opinion, the haughty opinion. You are of the caliber of Wilbur and Orville Wright.

2. The two fellows you upbraided made numerous and glaring errors, and didn't seem to care, because they were utterly unaware of having made them.

3. Time and time and time again we see these *scientists* invoke the Bible, and religion and YEC and all manner of topics that THEY bring into the conversation. I didn't bring them up, THEY did. They don't even notice it when they put THEIR words into MY mouth, THEIR anti-science into MY corner.

The subject is evolution, people: "the Facts".

Presenting nonsense, as so many of you do so often, distracts everyone from the real topic. This would seem to be your objective, overall.

It is anti-scientific and anti-intellectual.

P.S. Sphenisc, if you do not have the training of an attorney, you certainly would account yourself well in a court of law.
Would that more of the folks prattling "science" here had your wisdom and discernment.
 
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The main count of bacteria is inside the gut, get over it.

Bacteria in the body out number (SIC) that cells that you think are you, but that is numbers not the overall mass, and again get over it.

Look up symbiosis.

Paul

:) :) :)
__________________
/

A society fails when ignorance outweight (SIC) knowledge. - mine

"...ignorance outweight knowledge."

Go from the presence of a foolish man... - Proverbs 14:7

Paulhoff, welcome to my Ignore List.
 

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