Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Draca]

I think he made the wounds in the process of cutting her bra/attempting to remove her T-shirt by rolling it up towards her neck, probably while he was standing behind her (she could either have been standing as well, forced to her knees or lying on her front). Since he was behind her, he wouldn't have been able to see what he was doing nor how deep were the wounds he was making. If the wounds were made in the process of cutting the bra and removing her top, the blood both under and on top of the bra would be explained.

We wouldn't know if he rolled up the t-shirt while standing because it would have just rolled down. If she was on her knees in front of him he would have tried to remove the t-shirt from the back going over her head. Otherwise, why roll it up from behind when he can't see anything from the back anyway. The only time the t-shirt would be rolled up the way it was is when she was lying on her back.

 

[Cuddles]

Once again people in this thread seem to have decided they're free to ignore the rules. I have removed yet another group of derails and personal attacks, and if this behaviour carries on suspensions and bans will follow. Again.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

A photo of the jacket to consider:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447

Look how much blood is on around the neck of the jacket. It is likely she was stabbed while still wearing the jacket.

Blood on the cuff of a sock:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=165599630131183&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

Did bloody hands remove them?


Charlie,

Rep 114 - the underwear just say MK's DNA was found. Do you know if there was blood on the underwear?

Rep 115 - the jeans, says the same - but I know there was blood on the jeans. It's visible in photos even.

Didn't they do any testing on the long sleve T-shirt ? I don't see it mentioned at all....

I don't think they tested the shirt she was wearing. From the photos and video, I don't see any blood on her underpants.

Her clothing was undoubtedly removed after she was stabbed. As you say, there was blood on her jeans, but there was none on her body below her upper torso.

 

[Fine]

I don't think this sounds likely. In Rudy Guede's other encounters he tried to LEAVE. He only pulled out the knife on Christian Tramantano when he found the door locked - when he was trapped. I think it's more likely that Rudy heard Meredith come home and go to her bedroom while on the toilet. He got up and tried to leave but found the door locked. Meredith heard the noise and poked her head around the corner and then he came after her because she recognized him or yelled at him.

Or maybe he came to her bedroom to demand the keys and the confrontation began.
If he tried the door first she would have heard him. Otherwise he could have just tried to sneak back out the window unnoticed.

___________________

So many LONEWOLF/ INTERRUPTED BURGLARY scenarios assume that Rudy was trapped in the cottage with no key to unlock the front door. Three considerations suggest otherwise...

1. Why is there no mention in the Massei Report---or any other Court Document I'm familiar with---of this predicament in exiting the locked front door, unless, of course, one were one of the girls residing at the cottage, and so in possession of a key?

2. Wouldn't common sense suggest that the girls would have left an extra key---a convenience key--- in the interior door lock, or hanging from a key rack next to the front door, as a matter of convenience? Otherwise, to open the front door from the interior, one would have to find one's purse to grab the key every time a visitor came calling, every time one took out the trash, etc.

3. In Amanda's famous email she seems to suggest that there was such an extra key...

"so i arrived home and the first abnormal thing i noticed was the door
was wide open. here's the thingabout the door to our house: its
broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed.
if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wond to
blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out
or to get something from the neighbors who live below us.... anyway, so
the door was wide open. strange, yes, but not so strange that i really
thought anything about it. i assumed someone in the house was doing
exactly what i just said, taking out the trash or talking really
uickley to the neighbors downstairs. so i closed the door behind me but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open would like to come back in."
Notice that Amanda here implies that the person had used some key to unlock the door and that person didn't take that key with her. Therefore, that key must have been left in the interior lock or hung on the key rack, when the person exited the front door. And yet if this had been a personal key owned by one of the girls---and so would have been on a distinctive key ring---wouldn't Amanda have been able to say which girl had just left the cottage? Or, at least, know that it was one of the girls that had just left? But Amanda doesn't know which girl had left, and she can't be certain that it was one of those girls. In closing the front door, the interior lock and the key rack would have been clearly visible to Amanda, so it seems that what she saw left behind was a single extra key---an anonymous key--- kept there by the girls for convenience.


///

 

[Justinian2]

I would like to be able to reply to the responses to my last post in the AAH forum

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6506406&postcount=44

The emotion of the Amanda Knox case is a subject as appropriate as any posted on this thread in days.
Some of us are adult enough to discuss emotion without getting emotional at each other.

Everytime this subject is broached, poof! the post disappears.

The points are:
1) Being incarcerated isn't pleasant.
2) Going to court isn't a wonderful thing, but extremely painful.
3) Going bankrupt defending yourself or a family member in court is tragic.

The subject of this thread is the Amanda Knox case, not the death of MK! Death isn't great either, but at least her family can continue their lives.

 

[Matthew Best]

Notice that Amanda here implies that the person had used some key to unlock the door and that person didn't take that key with her.

No, there is no such implication. She may have just thought it would be nice not to force the person who has popped out to unlock the door again. I do the same thing at my house if I find the front door open sometimes - I tend to assume that someone has left it open because they have popped across the road to the shops and are coming back immediately, so would appreciate it being left open for a few moments.

 

[Justinian2]

___________________

So many LONEWOLF/ INTERRUPTED BURGLARY scenarios assume that Rudy was trapped in the cottage with no key to unlock the front door. Three considerations suggest otherwise...

1. Why is there no mention in the Massei Report---or any other Court Document I'm familiar with---of this predicament in exiting the locked front door, unless, of course, one were one of the girls residing at the cottage, and so in possession of a key?

2. Wouldn't common sense suggest that the girls would have left an extra key---a convenience key--- in the interior door lock, or hanging from a key rack next to the front door, as a matter of convenience? Otherwise, to open the front door from the interior, one would have to find one's purse to grab the key every time a visitor came calling, every time one took out the trash, etc.

3. In Amanda's famous email she seems to suggest that there was such an extra key...

"so i arrived home and the first abnormal thing i noticed was the door
was wide open. here's the thingabout the door to our house: its
broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed.
if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wond to
blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out
or to get something from the neighbors who live below us.... anyway, so
the door was wide open. strange, yes, but not so strange that i really
thought anything about it. i assumed someone in the house was doing
exactly what i just said, taking out the trash or talking really
uickley to the neighbors downstairs. so i closed the door behind me but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open would like to come back in."
Notice that Amanda here implies that the person had used some key to unlock the door and that person didn't take that key with her. Therefore, that key must have been left in the interior lock or hung on the key rack, when the person exited the front door. And yet if this had been a personal key owned by one of the girls---and so would have been on a distinctive key ring---wouldn't Amanda have been able to say which girl had just left the cottage? Or, at least, know that it was one of the girls that had just left? But Amanda doesn't know which girl had left, and she can't be certain that it was one of those girls. In closing the front door, the interior lock and the key rack would have been clearly visible to Amanda, so it seems that what she saw left behind was a single extra key---an anonymous key--- kept there by the girls for convenience.


///

My theory is that MK used her martial arts training to assault Guede. Anybody know how MK was trained? What type of martial arts?

Some training involves doing the unexpected and running at your assailant, kneeing him in the groin, kicking his shins and headbutting. Trouble is, this method could make the assailant very mad.

I know pepper spray is supposed to stop an attacker too. However, when a police officer sprayed me, I attacked him to remove the pepper spray and throw the can across the street. Then the cop charged me with A&B on a police officer which carries a two year jail sentence as well as being branded a felon.

The point is -- some techniques don't work as advertised. Theory is one thing, practice is another. So the question is: what type of martial arts training did MK have?

 

[LondonJohn]

___________________

So many LONEWOLF/ INTERRUPTED BURGLARY scenarios assume that Rudy was trapped in the cottage with no key to unlock the front door. Three considerations suggest otherwise...

1. Why is there no mention in the Massei Report---or any other Court Document I'm familiar with---of this predicament in exiting the locked front door, unless, of course, one were one of the girls residing at the cottage, and so in possession of a key?

2. Wouldn't common sense suggest that the girls would have left an extra key---a convenience key--- in the interior door lock, or hanging from a key rack next to the front door, as a matter of convenience? Otherwise, to open the front door from the interior, one would have to find one's purse to grab the key every time a visitor came calling, every time one took out the trash, etc.

3. In Amanda's famous email she seems to suggest that there was such an extra key...

"so i arrived home and the first abnormal thing i noticed was the door
was wide open. here's the thingabout the door to our house: its
broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed.
if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wond to
blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out
or to get something from the neighbors who live below us.... anyway, so
the door was wide open. strange, yes, but not so strange that i really
thought anything about it. i assumed someone in the house was doing
exactly what i just said, taking out the trash or talking really
uickley to the neighbors downstairs. so i closed the door behind me but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open would like to come back in."
Notice that Amanda here implies that the person had used some key to unlock the door and that person didn't take that key with her. Therefore, that key must have been left in the interior lock or hung on the key rack, when the person exited the front door. And yet if this had been a personal key owned by one of the girls---and so would have been on a distinctive key ring---wouldn't Amanda have been able to say which girl had just left the cottage? Or, at least, know that it was one of the girls that had just left? But Amanda doesn't know which girl had left, and she can't be certain that it was one of those girls. In closing the front door, the interior lock and the key rack would have been clearly visible to Amanda, so it seems that what she saw left behind was a single extra key---an anonymous key--- kept there by the girls for convenience.


///

As Matthew suggested already, I don't think that Knox implies this at all. It's as likely to be a matter of courtesy than the thought of actually locking somebody out.

Regarding your thoughts on the key situation:

1) A "convenience key" could not be left in the interior door lock, since this would prevent a key being inserted from outside - in other words, this sort of arrangement would prevent anyone from being able to open the door from the outside with a key.

2) If you stop to think about it, there's almost zero sense in having a "convenience key" hanging by the door. The only time this would make any sense would be if the person exiting the house planned to leave the door unlocked behind themselves (e.g. taking out the rubbish etc), and even then they probably wouldn't want to risk someone else locking the door while they were outside (assuming they replaced the "convenience key" once they used it to unlock the door). If someone were going out properly, then the door would need to be locked once they got outside - necessitating a key. So they would either take this "convenience key" and hold on to it while they were out - thus ruining the whole concept of a "convenience key - or they would take their own key (and therefore use it to both unlock and re-lock the door as they left).

3) Most landlords aren't fond of supplying more front door keys than there are tenants - for obvious reasons. If each tenant is personally responsible for her own key, then there's accountability. If there's a spare "convenience key" which just floats around, this is clearly more liable to go missing - with security consequences. It's therefore almost certain that the landlord would only want there to be four front door keys in existence, and that each of the tenants bore personal responsibility for her own key.

///

 

[Kaosium]

My theory is that MK used her martial arts training to assault Guede. Anybody know how MK was trained? What type of martial arts?

Coincidentally I was just reading something about that:

http://askville.amazon.com/describing-hygiene-Amanda-Knox/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=53668629

"She was a very strong person and when she was 17 she studied karate for a year," recalled her father, John Kercher, 68. "I think she could put up quite a fight."

I wouldn't put too much stock in one year of karate training personally.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh, and it seems likely that Massei didn't understand the way the front door actually worked, and the significance of normally needing a key to open it from the inside as well as the outside. Incidentally, I don't think the defence lawyers realised the full significance of this issue either in the first trial.

And of course the other reason why it doesn't figure much in the Massei report is that if one believes in Knox's guilt, then the whole key issue is largely irrelevant. It's only when considering Guede as a lone attacker (or Guede + Sollecito, or others unknown) that it becomes relevant and important.

 

[el buscador]

From what rudy said about chasing a person down the hall and tripping over the rack for drying cloths, I think the person rudy chased was Meredith and that she might have gotten in a couple of good blows or pushes to rudy and it really pissed him off. The savagery of the knife attack seems so personnel and Meredith's attempts at stopping him would perhaps explain why rudy attacked rather than ran.

I think Meredith arrived home, dropped her bag and the borrowed book in her room. She then went to the fridge, perhaps for a cold drink after her walk home. She could have taken a nibble of mushroom from her own shelf in the fridge (according to Candace Dempsey there was a package of mushrooms with the plastic pinched back as if someone had taken a nibble). She possibly then attempted the call to her mom heading toward the big bathroom to collect her wet laundry. Of course, rudy was there. Whether there was any conversation between rudy and Meredith is unknown but it would have been a short one. There is still the piece mushroom in Merediths throat that makes me think that the attack happened very quickly after the mushroom was eaten. Now, if the mushroom turns out to be a piece of apple that might change the sequence.

 

[christianahannah]

His [Rudy] DNA was found on the front of the bra between the cups where he would have then pulled it off of her while she was on her back again.

Draca, I believe Rudy's Y profile was found from a sample which was from the side towards the back of the bra according to the motivations (if I am reading it correctly).

Page 197:

More samples from various points on the bra were taken: two samples from the interior part of the bra cups; four samples of the straps that seemed torn, because there were cotton threads that had come out; another sample, identified by the letter B- from the portion of the elastic band that runs from the lateral side of the woman’s body until the back part, adjacent to the missing little piece which was recovered separately. In the posterior part of the bra, indicated with the letter B, the Y profile of Rudy Hermann Guede emerged; the genetic profile of total DNA was that of the victim, from the victim’s blood.

 

[christianahannah]

I would like to be able to reply to the responses to my last post in the AAH forum

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6506406&postcount=44

The emotion of the Amanda Knox case is a subject as appropriate as any posted on this thread in days.
Some of us are adult enough to discuss emotion without getting emotional at each other.

Everytime this subject is broached, poof! the post disappears.

The points are:
1) Being incarcerated isn't pleasant.
2) Going to court isn't a wonderful thing, but extremely painful.
3) Going bankrupt defending yourself or a family member in court is tragic.

The subject of this thread is the Amanda Knox case, not the death of MK! Death isn't great either, but at least her family can continue their lives.

Justinian, please understand that Meredith's family and friends cannot ever continue their lives in the same manner as before her death. This is the tragedy.

I am asking you to please stop bringing up this subject to make comparisons. The two situations don't compare equally at all.

 

[LondonJohn]

Coincidentally I was just reading something about that:

http://askville.amazon.com/describing-hygiene-Amanda-Knox/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=53668629

"She was a very strong person and when she was 17 she studied karate for a year," recalled her father, John Kercher, 68. "I think she could put up quite a fight."

I wouldn't put too much stock in one year of karate training personally.

True. And, as previously discussed here, unless she was a master of martial arts, she would have had very little confidence of fighting off a knife-wielding attacker who was taller and stronger than her. As I've suggested before, it's not unlikely that she became pacified by the threat posed by a knife - as many victims of violent sexual assault are. This is down to a combination of a reflex reaction of fear, plus a logical reasoning that being raped at knifepoint - as disgusting as that is - is preferable to putting up a fight and ending up dead. Unfortunately for Meredith, she may have started to resist when her assailant started removing her trousers, which may have prompted the stabbing.

 

[Mary_H]

I would like to be able to reply to the responses to my last post in the AAH forum<snip>

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6506406&postcount=44

The emotion of the Amanda Knox case is a subject as appropriate as any posted on this thread in days.<snip>

The subject of this thread is the Amanda Knox case, not the death of MK! <snip>

I agree.

 

[christianahannah]

It seems appropriate to note that those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele also want justice for Meredith. But we believe the system has gotten this wrong, and the best hope for getting it right is by making it possible for people with a serious interest to study the forensic evidence.

Charlie, I thank you for your willingness to share what information you have concerning this case. I apologize for not being more clear concerning my question. I was more interested in the eye-hooks (?) on the other piece of the bra rather than the whole bra itself (wondering if they were deformed in any way).

It is quite disconcerting to view some of the photos of Meredith's belongings, person, room, etc. I don't blame you for this, but it is not a pleasant situation all the same.

 

[Kaosium]

That's beautifully put.

Also saddening is the pointless extended trauma caused to the Kercher family by the bogus judicial process, and the further shock they will inevitably suffer when Amanda and Raffaele are ultimately vindicated. There are some who think they should be spared all this by everyone keeping quiet about the injustice, but of course it's no fault of Amanda and Raffaele that they should fight for the truth.

Meredith's family have been cruelly betrayed by the Perugia police and judiciary.

I've been thinking about this post. There is something that rings so true about it, the Kercher's have been brutally mistreated by the Perugian authorities, from the police all the way through the courts. Starting with the possibility that Rudy Guede could have been taken off the streets long before he broke into Meredith's house, had the police actually arrested him in his previous brushes with the law. Then they apparently decided the best way to investigate this murder was to put the screws to the foreign exchange girl barely out of her teens who hardly spoke Italian in order to get a reason to arrest someone else entirely innocent.

It was all downhill from there, leading a prosecutor to spread her lifestyle throughout the tabloids and then try to back up a preposterous theory with scant and contrived evidence. That ensured that no one not already convinced of the guilt of two convicted would rest, and that the drama would continue endlessly making headlines at every stop along the Italian justice system.

 

[Draca]

From what rudy said about chasing a person down the hall and tripping over the rack for drying cloths, I think the person rudy chased was Meredith and that she might have gotten in a couple of good blows or pushes to rudy and it really pissed him off. The savagery of the knife attack seems so personnel and Meredith's attempts at stopping him would perhaps explain why rudy attacked rather than ran.

I wasn't aware of this. Where does Rudy say he ran into the drying rack? That really does make this a likely scenario that at some point he chases her back to her room.

Drying Rack:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?id=106344459390034&pid=207544#!/photo.php?pid=425414&id=106344459390034

I think Meredith arrived home, dropped her bag and the borrowed book in her room. She then went to the fridge, perhaps for a cold drink after her walk home. She could have taken a nibble of mushroom from her own shelf in the fridge (according to Candace Dempsey there was a package of mushrooms with the plastic pinched back as if someone had taken a nibble). She possibly then attempted the call to her mom heading toward the big bathroom to collect her wet laundry. Of course, rudy was there. Whether there was any conversation between rudy and Meredith is unknown but it would have been a short one. There is still the piece mushroom in Merediths throat that makes me think that the attack happened very quickly after the mushroom was eaten. Now, if the mushroom turns out to be a piece of apple that might change the sequence.

I've thought a similar thing. I only abandoned her going to the fridge for the mushroom because the piece hasn't been tested, so we don't know what it is for sure. It could have also been a piece of apple I'm told. The mushroom makes sense to me personally because she would have eaten the dessert at least an hour before hand.

 

[Draca]

Draca, I believe Rudy's Y profile was found from a sample which was from the side towards the back of the bra according to the motivations (if I am reading it correctly).

Thank you, Christianhannah

 

[Machiavelli]

The subject of this thread is the Amanda Knox case, not the death of MK! Death isn't great either, but at least her family can continue their lives.

If death is better than the present situation, to be consistent you should have suggested Amanda ought to confess guilt sacrifying her life to save her family, and possibly eventually commit suicide so her family can go on with their lives.
As long as you don't take this position you are not consistent with what you maintain.

For me my task is only to make the point that the Meredith's case is the important one.