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Split Thread Was global collapse of WTC inevitable?

I guess this is the common misconception among pretend-debunkers: you like to think you are addressing lone quacks rather than simple and obvious physical observations. Your movement hasn't "debunked" anything as far as I've seen (please correct me if I'm wrong)and moreover you are making often absurd statements against the combined knowledge and expertise of now hundreds and hundreds of professionals in relevant fields. You don't have those numbers on your side. You have mostly confusion and inertia on your side.

No problem. Simply show me a compelling alternative analysis, including detailed technical discussion, by someone qualified to (and recognised as having expertise in) the design and analysis of tall structures. I've suggested some names above, but let me just remind you: Arup. Mott MacDonald. Atkins. Jacobs.

Show me an article in NCE, in the RIBA Journal, in a similar internationally recognised journal which supports your case.

Come on; apparently you've got hundreds of professionals on your side. It'll be easy, won't it?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're going to list your spokespeople, make sure they've actually spoken. Okay?

I fear you misunderstand the extent to which the analysis of the collapse, including the NIST findings, has been the subject of professional discussion across the globe.

Let me give you a simple example. The structural Eurocodes were redrafted to include increased protection against disproportionate structural collapse as a result of the NIST study. This decision was taken after being examined by qualified structural engineers here in Europe.On the back of this, the various UK building codes have also been reviewed. This too will include a review by our own structural engineers.

So who am I to believe? Your "hundreds" of experts in "relevant" (hah!) fields, or the real experts from Europe who helped redraft the Eurocode?

Likewise, the alternative thermal expansion analysis put forward variously by Arup and by Edinburgh received widespread coverage in the architectural and engineering press. Rather lends the lie to your claim that such things aren't covered.

Oh, and I'm sorry that Newton's Third Law is so stale for you. I guess it's one of those things that got left behind after 9/11 "changed everything". Sorry.

Your poor understanding of the application of said law together with not even a basic grasp of structural analysis is not my problem. If you wish to prove me wrong, however, then feel free to post competent structural calculations.

In the meantime I would again commend the previously linked thread. It clearly demonstrates the lack of substance and poor analysis which underpins the same tired theories which you now espouse. Something Heiwa found out to his cost, alas.
 
I guess this is the common misconception among pretend-debunkers: you like to think you are addressing lone quacks rather than simple and obvious physical observations. Your movement hasn't "debunked" anything as far as I've seen (please correct me if I'm wrong), and moreover you are making often absurd statements against the combined knowledge and expertise of now hundreds and hundreds of professionals in relevant fields. You don't have those numbers on your side. You have mostly confusion and inertia on your side.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're going to list your spokespeople, make sure they've actually spoken. Okay?

Oh, and I'm sorry that Newton's Third Law is so stale for you. I guess it's one of those things that got left behind after 9/11 "changed everything". Sorry.

So how is life in candyland?

How can you have the "combined knowledge and expertise of now hundreds and hundreds of professionals in relevant fields," yet zero articles and papers to show for it? What exactly are they doing with their time? I've co-authored two papers this year and I'm still a freaking student.
 
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I would argue 30 to 50%--is ejected out of the "crush" zone. And a discussion of how rubble can crush 80 to 90 storeys of an intact building anyway is too silly to waste time on.

No wonder you're evading any challenge to your bare assertions - you cannot defend them with mathematics, you can't quantify what you describe as 'rubble'.

It's your claim that the upper section, partially destroyed, could not crush down the rest of the building. It's therefore your job to demonstrate why that is; but you're going to continue to evade such a simple responsibility - it's so much easier just to make bare assertions with no math, isn't it?

It's not even a disappointment, coming from you - my expectations are quite low.:p
 
It's your claim that the upper section, partially destroyed, could not crush down the rest of the building. It's therefore your job to demonstrate why that is; but you're going to continue to evade such a simple responsibility - it's so much easier just to make bare assertions with no math, isn't it?

It's not like he has to put thought into it, I've already told him exactly how to do it.
 
Please explain what specifically is wrong about what I've said. Ten bucks says you won't. Maybe you should read the link yourself.

Why doesn't someone just model a rubble-driven crush down? How difficult can that be? Show us how it would work. If you can't, then maybe you shouldn't be blathering on quite so much about it.





(this one continued far below where the video stopped but I didn't set it up right to capture/render enough frames and since it takes hours to do, I got lazy :p)
 
No wonder you're evading any challenge to your bare assertions - you cannot defend them with mathematics, you can't quantify what you describe as 'rubble'.

It's your claim that the upper section, partially destroyed, could not crush down the rest of the building. It's therefore your job to demonstrate why that is; but you're going to continue to evade such a simple responsibility - it's so much easier just to make bare assertions with no math, isn't it?

What challenge? And where are your calculations? I don't pretend to be a physicist or engineer. The calculations have been shown by people like Chandler, Ross, Szamboti and others. You guys don't like them. I don't care. You haven't debunked them.

Where are your calculations, alien?
 
(this one continued far below where the video stopped but I didn't set it up right to capture/render enough frames and since it takes hours to do, I got lazy :p)


Cool graphics, but what inputs are you using? It seems to just be animation based on some neato-cool ideas. Only the last one approaches a rubble-driven collapse, and, as you yourself note, the collapse didn't complete itself. I suppose you could fix that with more animation.
 
What challenge? And where are your calculations?
I see you're still too lazy to use the search facilities.

I don't pretend to be a physicist or engineer.
You deserve credit for that (although any pretense would have been futile).

The calculations have been shown by people like Chandler, Ross, Szamboti and others. You guys don't like them. I don't care. You haven't debunked them.
Debunking their calculations is easy. Some of my calculations are here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5544701#post5544701
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5544749&postcount=1181
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5544806&postcount=1183
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6094041&postcount=79

Several JREFers have posted more complete refutations, complete with calculations. Those folks can respond if they want, but why should they bother when you don't care enough to use the search facilities?
 
What paper? On what topic? Have you cited the relevant text yet?

The one by Zou on a collapse arresting system in tall buildings. Don't be obtuse.

Sorry, the entire thing is relevant. I gave you enough information to find it.

Please feel free to contact your local college to find it for you if you need help.

BTW, just the abstract tells you alot. You may need to pony up some money to get the full text. Too bad it's going to cost you money to find out how deluded your ideas are....
 
I see you're still too lazy to use the search facilities.


You deserve credit for that (although any pretense would have been futile).


Debunking their calculations is easy. Some of my calculations are here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5544701#post5544701
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5544749&postcount=1181
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5544806&postcount=1183
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6094041&postcount=79

Several JREFers have posted more complete refutations, complete with calculations. Those folks can respond if they want, but why should they bother when you don't care enough to use the search facilities?


I'm sorry, but are JREF posts all you can cite? Given what we know of debating tactics here, it doesn't instill confidence. Have you published these refutations anywhere else? I believe it's you folks who are constantly demanding that others publish in peer-reviewed journals. What about yourselves?
 
Do you have a specific technical objection to the citations, or are you just handwaving them away like everything else because you don't understand it?
 
The one by Zou on a collapse arresting system in tall buildings. Don't be obtuse.

Sorry, the entire thing is relevant. I gave you enough information to find it.

Please feel free to contact your local college to find it for you if you need help.

BTW, just the abstract tells you alot. You may need to pony up some money to get the full text. Too bad it's going to cost you money to find out how deluded your ideas are....

Why would I read an article by a grad student who believes in supernatural quantities of kinetic energy somehow generated by gravity alone? Secondly, why would I pay to read it? Why would I care what he has to say about "energy absorbing devices" for structures that don't collapse from fire?? He won't be talking about global collapses because global collapses in steel-framed highrises DO NOT OCCUR FROM FIRE ALONE. Okay?

If you want to read the article, you go right ahead.
 
I'm sorry, but are JREF posts all you can cite? Given what we know of debating tactics here, it doesn't instill confidence. Have you published these refutations anywhere else? I believe it's you folks who are constantly demanding that others publish in peer-reviewed journals. What about yourselves?

Try reading as opposed to poisoning the well. Kthnx
 
He won't be talking about global collapses because global collapses in steel-framed highrises DO NOT OCCUR FROM FIRE ALONE. Okay?

Well, you've obviously researched this. Please provide references to support your assertion.
 
I'm sorry, but are JREF posts all you can cite? Given what we know of debating tactics here, it doesn't instill confidence. Have you published these refutations anywhere else? I believe it's you folks who are constantly demanding that others publish in peer-reviewed journals. What about yourselves?

Why do we need to respond to internet postings with peer-reviewed papers? Your **** that you post here certainly isn't appearing in any journals.

If we published our responses in a peer-reviewed journal, you would never see it, because you won't pay to view it. Derpa derpa.
 

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