Happy Birthday Satan!

[Marduk]

Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference..

Pre-diaspora, Hebrews didn't define evil, post-diaspora they named it, from "adversaries" to "the adversary". (Ha)
Religious beliefs evolve, this evolving influence was Babylonian
(I think you meant homogenous there, not homogenic)

If you agree that the OT is in conflict with itself regarding the character of Satan, don't you think my assertion that he is seen as the symbol of evil by most jewish readers, or is that just in my family?

It is in conflict, because it wasn't written at the same time by the same person, like any chronicle therefore it reflects the beliefs of a wide variety of people who were influenced by many other cultures around them over a long period, nowhere is this more apparent than in Genesis 1 where the role you would think most suiting to Satan is played by a serpent, simply because Satan hadn't been invented at that point in Hebrew history.

When you get back to the roots of it, Satan changed from a force to a personality between 600BCE and 100CE by which point he was personified as the character that Christianity recognises today, the only significant thing that happened to the Jews in that period was their enslavement by the Babylonians. If youre not aware of that part of their history
heres wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

As regards your family, without knowing to which movement they belong I wouldn't hazard a guess, you don't seem particularly devout though

 

[Marduk]

What about Santa Claus? How much of him did Coca Cola create?

Ask them
http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.html
Did you know that the original Saint Nicholas was just a figurehead (like many national saints, St George of England for instance was made patron 1000 years after he died and never even visited the UK) created by the Church to cover pagan worship some of which revolved around the God Belus
who was the slavic version of satan
funny how its all connected isn't it......

 

[Illiadus]

I think you meant homogenous there, not homogenic

No, words is the only thing I'm really good at.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=homogeny&ls=a
http://www.wordnik.com/words/homogenic

As regards your family, without knowing to which movement they belong I wouldn't hazard a guess, you don't seem particularly devout though

I'm not, but I think there's something lacking in your cerebral and Spockian reasoning around this subject. Us "modern" people tend to look down on the superstitious fools of yore and think that they believed most anything, and always in a literal sense.

It's like people from the future watching television shows from 2010 and marvelling at what people believed in. "A smoke monster! What fools they were!" Without the interpretation, all we have left of history is a text.

Maybe they 'believed' in the same sense we do today.

You can give me more links if you want, but then you've really proven that you don't get what I'm saying.

 

[Marduk]

No, words is the only thing I'm really good at.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=homogeny&ls=a
http:///homogenwww.wordnik.com/wordsic
.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/homogenic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogenic

I'm not, but I think there's something lacking in your cerebral and Spockian reasoning around this subject. Us "modern" people tend to look down on the superstitious fools of yore and think that they believed most anything, and always in a literal sense.

That would be argumentum ad populum, its a logical fallacy and in this case its wrong, what we know of ancient peoples isn't just based on what they wrote. We also have the archaeological evidence of their daily lives. They did believe in demons, angels and spirits, they had words for them and names for specific ones and they exhibited some very specific remedies both medical and superstitious against them. I can provide you with an extensive list of instances if youre interested

It's like people from the future watching television shows from 2010 and marvelling at what people believed in. "A smoke monster! What fools they were!" Without the interpretation, all we have left of history is a text.
Maybe they 'believed' in the same sense we do today.

Thats a generalisation, also a logical fallacy, Education and science has been proven to be the bane of relgious fundamentalism, those people had none, they didn't know that the world and the heavens were not arranged like the priests claimed they were, because the only source they had were priests

You can give me more links if you want, but then you've really proven that you don't get what I'm saying.

Thats because what youre saying isn't evidenced, but rather unwarranted supposition and assumption

 

[ExMinister]

OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.

Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh.




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

 

[Marduk]

Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh.




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

isn't that like saying that you can't worship the God who sent the Great Flood without being Sumerian ?

many do, and aren't
you know that the concept of satan predates christianity by hundreds of years ?

 

[Illiadus]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/homogenic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogenic

Why are you providing me with these links? Be clear about what linguistic mistakes you feel that I've made and we'll discuss it, but don't just provide links that in no way take anything away from the ones I provided or from what I'm saying.

 

[Marduk]

Why are you providing me with these links? Be clear about what linguistic mistakes you feel that I've made and we'll discuss it, but don't just provide links that in no way take anything away from the ones I provided or from what I'm saying.

One of your links wasn't even to the correct word and the other wasn't a dictionary but a link to 3 uses of the word made by people not especially skilled in linguistics. Both of my links were to well known dictionaries that make it quite clear that you were using a word with a specific medical usage which is not designed for non medical texts
lets leave it at that shall we, discussing your errors is off topic, if you want to carry on
start another thread
and please in future, if someone goes to the trouble of providing you with a credible link, you could at least show them the respect of reading it,
http://dictionary.reference.com/bro...tmcct=/showthread.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=1938865

 

[Niggle]

I think it's the Christians who actually worsip Satan; they spend so much time talking about him and assign so much power to him.

Besides, they had to invent someone worse than the psychopathic megalomaniac they worship so their guy wouldn't seem so bad.





I was raised Catholic. Bitter? Me? Nah!

 

[Brattus]

I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

They just can't seem to get their brains around that one.

A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.

I agree.

 

[Illiadus]

One of your links wasn't even to the correct word and the other wasn't a dictionary but a link to 3 uses of the word made by people not especially skilled in linguistics. Both of my links were to well known dictionaries that make it quite clear that you were using a word with a specific medical usage which is not designed for non medical texts
lets leave it at that shall we, discussing your errors is off topic, if you want to carry on showing everyone what you don't know
start another thread
and please in future, if someone goes to the trouble of providing you with a credible link, you could at least show them the respect of reading it,
http://dictionary.reference.com/bro...tmcct=/showthread.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=1938865

Surely, you must know that medical dictionaries don't contain every possible usage of a word, but that they focus on the medical definition, whether or not there are other accepted uses?

Both my links were to the intended words. Homogeny was the word I wanted to link to, in one of the links. The other link was to show you that the word can be used creatively, which you seem unable to understand.

Also, don't accuse me of not reading the links. I read them and saw your mistakes. Here I'm trying to explain to you where you went wrong.

I don't care who follows this debate. I have nothing to hide. However, in respect of your request not to ruin this thread with off-topic bickering, I'll leave now and comment no further. I hope you can show enough respect to do the same after I'm gone.

 

[Brattus]

funny how its all connected isn't it......

Funny or could it be that Satan has come for a piece of his birthday cake?

 

[Brattus]

Well Marduk from reading some of your previous post I know you know what you're talking about here but I still don't get it.

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

But rather to devote ones life and serve what is believed to be a real deity.

So to worship Satan as a Satan worshiper would do they would need to believe that Satan is a real deity that is part of the real world.
So if they believe Satan is real then how could they not believe in the Christian God?

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

Hey Marduk could you please answer this post.
I am interested in what you might have to say regarding this.

 

[Marduk]

Surely, you must know that medical dictionaries don't contain every possible usage of a word, but that they focus on the medical definition, whether or not there are other accepted uses?

neither of the dictionaries were medical, the miriam webster one only has an entry for that word under its medical section, lets have a look at what you got wrong so far in order shall we
1. Claimed that Satan and Tiamat have no connection
2. Claimed that Satan was not considered corporeal in Judaism
3. Definition of the Torah isn't just values as you stated
4. Claimed that only Christians believe in devils and demons, angels and spirits.
5. didn't know what "Ha" signified
6. Claimed I had misrepresented the number of links you posted
7. Claimed not to be confused
8. Posted on off topic santa claus (until I saved your post from deletion under rule 11)
9. Made several logical fallacies to cover your lack of knowledge of historical research
10. Claimed that Satan had alleles
11. went off topic again posting something which didn't include anything about satan when I had clearly shown you with dictionary references (which you have been unable to provide) that you had confused the word "Homogenic" (purtaining to genetics) with the word "homogenous" (things of a similar nature)

Up til now I was too embarrassed for you to point these out, but as this posts on topic and yours isn't perhaps you'd like to take this opportunity to actually find out what the "E" stands for in JREF and put that into practice in future posts
OK ?


I know you'll be posting on this again
12 you claimed twice you were leaving the thread

 

[Brattus]

Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh.




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

Hi Ex!
Hey if I could be a Satan worshiper and stay an atheist I would do it only because being an atheist is soooooooooo boring.
I would however not be a Christian if I could stay an atheist because I could never be that evil.

Regarding my sig. That post of yours had me written all over it!
As well you know my big opinionated text talk makes me soooo many forum friends!
I really am working on it though. Not all of us can express ourselves as well as Mr. Lancaster once could. What a gift that would be though!

 

[Marduk]

Hey Marduk could you please answer this post.
I am interested in what you might have to say regarding this.

Sorry I missed it first time in the jokes about your wiener.

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

Just because someone worships something it doesn't make that something a God, the Church of Satan rejects all Gods and instead places their faith in powers, or elements, as such its equivalent to modern pantheists worshipping nature, or the Jedi worshipping the force. Having it this way they then have a natural hierarchy, with those claiming to be most in tune with "the power" directing the way to it to others. Satan was just window dressing imo

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

Satan existed quite some time before the Bible, and even longer before Jesus, the concept of evil personified predates Abrahamic religion by thousands of years, so Satan although today recognised generally as a christian character could equally well be claimed to be either Hebrew or even Babylonian in origin. The name itself isn't Hebrew, but exists in all Semitic languages where "Sa" is "to oppose" or "to equal" and "An" represents "heaven"
the two words date to 3000bce, thats 5000 years ago, quite a lot older than Abraham (1800bce) who founded the monotheistic religions we know today
Although please note, I am not claiming Satan is the invention of just one culture, but the homogenised () result of many
anything else
just ask

Hi Ex!
Hey if I could be a Satan worshiper and stay an atheist I would do it only because being an atheist is soooooooooo boring.

Pantheism is sexed-up atheism.

 

[Illiadus]

11. went off topic again posting something which didn't include anything about satan when I had clearly shown you with dictionary references (which you have been unable to provide) that you had confused the word "Homogenic" (purtaining to genetics) with the word "homogenous" (things of a similar nature)

Up til now I was too embarrassed for you to point these out, but as this posts on topic and yours isn't perhaps you'd like to take this opportunity to actually find out what the "E" stands for in JREF and put that into practice in future posts
OK ?

You couldn't let it go even though I offered to leave?
E-ducate yourself with this, then, my former friend:

"Homogenous" are indeed things of a similar nature, just as you write.
"Homogenic" refers to animals with a common origin. The technicalities of that term concerns genes, yes, but I was comparing your different Satanic prototypes to animals and wondering about their common origin, which is a perfectly good way to use a word. You couldn't be more wrong.

Now do you understand?
Learn, for Satan's sake.

 

[Marduk]

You couldn't let it go even though I offered to leave?
E-ducate yourself with this, then, my former friend:

"Homogenous" are indeed things of a similar nature, just as you write.
"Homogenic" refers to animals with a common origin. The technicalities of that term concerns genes, yes, but I was comparing your different Satanic prototypes to animals and wondering about their common origin, which is a perfectly good way to use a word. You couldn't be more wrong.

Now do you understand?
Learn, for Satan's sake.

Still haven't found a dictionary that supports your usage then
colour me "not at all surprised"


btw, friends don't fall out just because one of them is wrong all the time
or, if you prefer
oh noes, now that you have withdrawn our JREF profile friendship connection I only have 280 other friends left

your loss

 

[Brattus]

Sorry I missed it first time in the jokes about your wiener.

Stop looking at me! LOL!!!!!!!

Just because someone worships something it doesn't make that something a God, the Church of Satan rejects all Gods and instead places their faith in powers, or elements, as such its equivalent to modern pantheists worshipping nature, or the Jedi worshipping the force. Having it this way they then have a natural hierarchy, with those claiming to be most in tune with "the power" directing the way to it to others. Satan was just window dressing imo

Thanks for your response!
How can you have a church of something but not believe in gods?
Even the Jedi didn't worship the force they were just aware of it and used it to help themselves accomplish their goals.
There was no church of the force. It sounds to me like these Satanist are just trying to deny that they have to accept the Christian way before they can even begin their Satan way.

Satan existed quite some time before the Bible, and even longer before Jesus, the concept of evil personified predates Abrahamic religion by thousands of years, so Satan although today recognised generally as a christian character could equally well be claimed to be either Hebrew or even Babylonian in origin. The name itself isn't Hebrew, but exists in all Semitic languages where "Sa" is "to oppose" or "to equal" and "An" represents "heaven"
the two words date to 3000bce, thats 5000 years ago, quite a lot older than Abraham (1800bce) who founded the monotheistic religions we know today
Although please note, I am not claiming Satan is the invention of just one culture, but the homogenised () result of many
anything else
just ask

Thanks for the history lesson! I'm not being a smartass you are obviously very well educated in religion.
But I was strictly referring to the Satan that my ex friend was referring to.

In other words the most current meaning and understanding in American terms of Satan.
I told her I had no religious beliefs and at first she called me an atheist and then she called me a Satan worshiper.

The Satan in the king james version of the bible she more than likely lugs around with her but never reads.
That Satan was created by the God of the same book.

So, no God no Satan. I believe I am correct in the context described.

 

[Marduk]

How can you have a church of something but not believe in gods?
.

Because along with the church you get freedom from taxation (first amendment) and because of the etymology of the word it is a house belonging to a lord. The lord doesn't have to be a deity.

Even the Jedi didn't worship the force they were just aware of it and used it to help themselves accomplish their goals.
There was no church of the force. .

youre talking movies, I'm talking reality
http://www.jedichurch.org/
http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/

So, no God no Satan. I believe I am correct in the context described.

you were perfectly correct, in her narrow definition and understanding of Satan you totally pwned her ass