Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

Finally, I think that any person who asserts that the files have been released is obliged to show that they have been...

No, that's not how it works. You made the claim that the files were not released, it's you that needs to back that statement up with evidence.

 

[RoseMontague]

He may have been on the staff but his article was not published by that review. There is no reference to that article from the review's search engine and the article itself is not linked to the George Washington International Law Review, it's posted on something called the Berkeley Electronic Press.

I think you are correct. He is just a newbie after all. However, it appears that his focus is international law and he has a pretty impressive resume for someone just out of law school. I am more concerned if his arguments presented in his paper make sense, and for that someone qualified in this field would have to make an opinion. His conclusion is pretty straightforward.

 

[Alt+F4]

I think you are correct. He is just a newbie after all. However, it appears that his focus is international law and he has a pretty impressive resume for someone just out of law school. I am more concerned if his arguments presented in his paper make sense, and for that someone qualified in this field would have to make an opinion. His conclusion is pretty straightforward.

I'm sorry Rose, I must have missed seeing his "impressive resume". Could you link to it? Thanks.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm sorry Rose, I must have missed seeing his "impressive resume". Could you link to it? Thanks.

As I said previously, for a newbie it seems to me to be impressive.
Chris indicated a Judicial intern as well but I am not seeing that one

Education
* The George Washington University Law School
* Wheaton College

Benjamin Sayagh’s Education
*
The George Washington University Law School

J.D., with honors , 2007 — 2010

Activities and Societies:
International Law Review, Moot Court Board, Dean's Fellow, Guide to International Legal Research, Law Revue, International Law Society

Wheaton College

B.A., cum laude , U.S. History, French Studies , 1999 — 2003

Activities and Societies:
National French Honor Society

 

[treehorn]

You need to cite all these accusations if you want them to be taken seriously. You're trying to raise questions and cast aspersions in order to build an image of Amanda that may have no basis in reality. Why sneak in a mention of "someone abusing alcohol or drugs," when there is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele were anything but casual users?

Why do you assume Amanda's sexual behavior was reckless? To make that argument, you would have to show that anyone who has had sexual relations with more than one person in one week is reckless. Good luck with that.

I've noted that you make a habit of requesting "citations" for sources and information that you've already consulted, assimilated and evaluated. Why?

I am NOT "trying to cast aspersions" and I am NOT tying "to build an image of Amanda." I'm only interested in sorting through all of the information in an effort to decipher the truth. If you want to discuss the case, I'm interested, but if you just want to put words in my mouth and/or mischaracterize my assertions, I'm going to ignore you: What you've been doing is not only counter to the aims of the JREF forum, it's boring and, worse still, it leads no one anywhere nearer the truth.

As for the use of illicit narcotics in combination with alcohol, one goes from "using" to "abusing" when these substances are consumed in quantities sufficient to induce profound memory loss.

Unprotected sex with someone you've just met is, by any reasonable measure, "reckless." To repeat this behavior with at least 2 (if not 6) other such people in the span of 6 weeks is indicative of a serious problem (such as drug abuse and/or mental illness).

Do you take issue with Nadeau's assertion that Knox managed to have sex with Daniel in the midst of her 6 day "love affair" with Raffaele?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

In link

As I said previously, for a newbie it seems to me to be impressive.
Chris indicated a Judicial intern as well but I am not seeing that one

Rose,

My information came from his LinkedIn page.

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose,

My information came from his LinkedIn page.

Yes, thanks. We know he is smart, the question is if he is right. I know this issue is one that Frank has been adamant on from the beginning that Raffaele and Amanda have gotten the shaft as far as confined to prison during all these trials and appeals. This guy seems to be arguing that they are using a law intended to fight the Mafia for people it was not intended for and this is an abuse of the intention of that law and violates some international guidelines as well.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sollecito's appeal on lack of discovery

Please present EVIDENCE that the files were denied to the defense. Here are some examples of evidence:

1. Swore statement from those who signed the open letter that they were personally refused access to these files. If they were not personally refused by the prosecution or the court then it is nothing but heresay.

2. Motions presented to the court by the defense asking for the files and motions from the prosecution denying the request.

Just prove that the defense ASKED and that the prosecution said NO.

Alt+F4,

You are free to ignore my reporting of discussions with Dan Krane, Jason Gilder, and other authors and cosigners of the open letter. Unfortunately, I have no power to compel them to give me sworn statements. I don't think that court motions are regularly made available to the public.

You are free to ignore that Sara Gino said that as of 26 September 2009, she did not have the dates on which the tests were run (that information would have been in the electronic data files). She was a defense witness. However, even by your own standards, I am dismayed that you also choose to ignore Raffaele Sollecito’s appeal, which details the lack of discovery on pages 51-57, a portion of which appears below:

"in considerazione dell’estrema importanza di un simile tema di prova, su indicazione del Prof. Pascali, consulente tecnico della difesa di Raffaele Sollecito, in data 24 giugno 2008 - pendente il termine di 20 giorni previsto dall’art. 415 bis -, è stata formulata una prima richiesta al Pubblico Ministero di acquisizione dei diagrammi elettroferogrammi in base ai quali la polizia scientifica è giunta ai risultati contenuti nella Relazione tecnica di genetica forense. In particolare, con tale richiesta è stata specificata l’assoluta necessità (al fine della presentazione di memorie ed istanze difensive ai sensi dell’art. 415 bis c.p.p.) di avere a disposizione la predetta documentazione affinché il consulente di parte potesse esaminarla dettagliatamente;
- tuttavia, contro ogni evidenza, il Pubblico Ministero ha rigettato la richiesta ritenendola inammissibile “poiché le facoltà di cui all‟art. 415 bis c.p.p. riguardano gli atti depositati e solo quelli”;
- per fronteggiare un simile, ingiusto, diniego, la difesa ha formulato in data 3 luglio 2008, un’ulteriore istanza nella quale si chiedeva di “acquisire presso i laboratori della polizia scientifica i valori numerici RFU e i picchi relativi a tutti i reperti o, in alternativa di ottenere dalla polizia scientifica Cdrom contenente i dati grezzi RFU e picchi”. Si è chiesto, inoltre, nel caso in cui non fosse possibile ottenere copia di tali dati, che il Prof. Pascali venisse autorizzato a recarsi presso il servizio di polizia scientifica per una consultazione in loco dei dati e per farne direttamente copia informatica;"

RoseMontague may still have this document available at her docstoc page.

 

[treehorn]

As I said previously, for a newbie it seems to me to be impressive.
Chris indicated a Judicial intern as well but I am not seeing that one

Education
* The George Washington University Law School
* Wheaton College

Benjamin Sayagh’s Education
*
The George Washington University Law School

J.D., with honors , 2007 — 2010

Activities and Societies:
International Law Review, Moot Court Board, Dean's Fellow, Guide to International Legal Research, Law Revue, International Law Society

Wheaton College

B.A., cum laude , U.S. History, French Studies , 1999 — 2003

Activities and Societies:
National French Honor Society

No offense, but that law school is second-tier, at best. (The 'White Shoe' Wall Street firms won't exactly be knocking down his door.)

You'll note also that his paper has not been published - not even in a bottom-tier review.

Finally, you'd do well to remember that this paper was not only written by a student, but a student at a COMMON LAW school with no formal training in the Italian Civil Law tradition. He is quite literally in no position to fully understand and appreciate Italian rules, rationales and procedures, much less place them in the appropriate context. (Hence the status of his student paper: UNPUBLISHED.)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Silver hammers

Yes, thanks. We know he is smart, the question is if he is right. I know this issue is one that Frank has been adamant on from the beginning that Raffaele and Amanda have gotten the shaft as far as confined to prison during all these trials and appeals. This guy seems to be arguing that they are using a law intended to fight the Mafia for people it was not intended for and this is an abuse of the intention of that law and violates some international guidelines as well.

Rose,

I spoke to a lawyer whom I know about this paper. His specialty is not International law, but FWIW he felt that the reasoning in this paper was sound. What you said in a different thread about a different court, "We are left with a burp and a Beatles T-shirt," applies to this decision as well, IMO.

 

[RoseMontague]

No offense, but that law school is second-tier, at best. (The 'White Shoe' Wall Street firms won't exactly be knocking down his door.)

You'll note also that his paper has not been published - not even in a bottom-tier review.

Finally, you'd do well to remember that this paper was not only written by a student, but a student at a COMMON LAW school with no formal training in the Italian Civil Law tradition. He is quite literally in no position to fully understand and appreciate Italian rules, rationales and procedures, much less place them in the appropriate context. (Hence the status of his student paper: UNPUBLISHED.)

Whatever you say on that, sounds like you are all over these common law things. I just said I believe he is smart and the resume looks to me (that is an opinion) to be impressive for a guy just out of law school. I also indicated that I was interested in what someone that was qualified in this field would have to say about his article because his conclusion is dead set against the way Amanda's confinement has been accomplished.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

you dodged the question

No offense, but that law school is second-tier, at best. (The 'White Shoe' Wall Street firms won't exactly be knocking down his door.)

You'll note also that his paper has not been published - not even in a bottom-tier review.

Finally, you'd do well to remember that this paper was not only written by a student, but a student at a COMMON LAW school with no formal training in the Italian Civil Law tradition. He is quite literally in no position to fully understand and appreciate Italian rules, rationales and procedures, much less place them in the appropriate context. (Hence the status of his student paper: UNPUBLISHED.)

treehorn,

Why don't you have a go at refuting his arguments?

post script
George Washington ranked 20th in one list of the top law schools. Moreover, your argument about Italian Civil Law misses one of the main points of his article, which is concerned with international law. I suggest that you try to focus on the argument, not on slaying the messenger, next time.

 

[Draca]

Amanda's Sex Partners

Unprotected sex with someone you've just met is, by any reasonable measure, "reckless." To repeat this behavior with at least 2 (if not 6) other such people in the span of 6 weeks is indicative of a serious problem (such as drug abuse and/or mental illness).

Do you take issue with Nadeau's assertion that Knox managed to have sex with Daniel in the midst of her 6 day "love affair" with Raffaele?

Angel Face page 28. Amanda's lifetime sex partner list for HIV test:

1. Kyle - also a virgin
2. James - checks regularly and always used a condom
3. Ross - a one night stand, pull out
4. DJ - condoms, mom is a nurse, he would know
5. Elis - pull out - one night stand
6. Daniele - condoms, one night stand
7. Raffaele - condoms, one time w/o

Page 29.
Stranger on a train

Page 31.
although she did manage to bed a Greek, an Albanian, and an Italian other than Raffaele during her first few weeks in Perugia.

Page 34.
Two nights after Amanda and Raf got involved, she hooked up once more with Daniel de Luna.


Barbie posted the list of lifetime partners Amanda made for the HIV test. This note is very specific on with who and how much protection was used. Within ONE page Barbie adds Federico (the stranger from the train). Another two pages she adds a Greek and Albanian !! Then she mentions Daniel again. Barbie as usual has a mix of true and false. Who is she to add Federico, Greek and Albanian to Amanda's list ?!

It is true looking at her HIV list that she did not always have safe sex. How different is this than the average college girl or guy? I don't know if she hooked up for another night with Daniel after she met Raffaele. If she did, she must not have felt exclusive with Raffaele by that time.

As for alcohol, it doesn't seem that Amanda was known to drink much. Any more than Meredith or the other girls. Her video on youtube drinking with friends has her drunk and saying she had only one or two shots, that seems like a light weight drinker.

 

[treehorn]

Believe me, I had changed my tune about Knox and Sollecito well before I "left" PMF. And PMF itself was a significant reason why I changed my view. It turned out that in "Darkness Descending" and PMF I had chosen my first two information sources that were heavily biased towards guilt and/or stunningly inaccurate. Fortunately, my mounting concern at behaviours and attitudes on PMF, coupled with a desire to search other information sources, soon began to convince me that my initial impressions were wrong. And I'm totally comfortable with admitting that. I'm still interested that someone chose to use up a portion of their presumably valuable time in "researching" some of my initial posts on PMF. I wonder why?

FWIW, I think you'd have made an interesting (if somewhat exasperating) contribution to PMF.

Alas, your characterization of PMF as "stunningly inaccurate" is a curious thing.

I can plainly see that you've spent a great deal of time and energy assimilating the fact pattern over a fairly long period of time - enough time to fairly evaluate the relative 'accuracy' of the various sources of case information.

If you've honestly been "stunned" by the "inaccuracy" of PMF, I can't begin to imagine your take on the likes of Edda, Curt, Ciolino, Bremner, Dempsey and Moore.

How would you describe your reaction to their inaccuracies?

 

[Dan O.]

Wow, I missed that one when I read the book. I would love to see if a photo of this message board exists. Charlie, can you see if you have anything on video?

I thought I remembered seeing a message board thingy just inside the door next to the phone on the wall. But in the new tenant photo of the entrance there is a hanging photo in that spot. The only other view of that wall that I know of is Barbie's and you can only recognize there are things on the wall.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
The crux of the problem here is that those of us who are well-informed about criminal investigations can differentiate between reliable evidence, unreliable evidence, and worthless evidence. We can see that the evidence against Rudy is reliable. We can also see that the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is entirely unreliable, and most of it is worthless. This is clear to me, and it is clear to many experts who have looked at the case. Those who lack the knowledge to see what we can see are wasting time by promoting an opinion based on ignorance. This time could be better spent on a course of remedial reading, to actually learn something about the subject before expounding on it.

The essence of your argument is that you are well informed about criminal investigations, and thus you can decide - better than others - what evidence must be dismissed because unreliable.
My educated guess is that I may understand a few things too, and the experts who actually looked at the case as well as the judges, probably too. I may add, my opinions probably are not based on ignorance (contrarily from people like Steve Moore).
I also think that you reasoning on fingerprints is flawed: the convictment of Guede ought to be based on the demonstration that his justification for facts is unreliable. The evidence is given by the fact that Guede is a liar, not by his presence on the scene of murder. If he were able to justify its presence credibly, the evidence would be insufficient.

 

[Justinian2]

Is there a photograph of the bra when it was first found?

How do I know that the bra clasp wasn't cut off in December?

What is the chain of evidence for the bra clasp?

 

[Draca]

Is there a photograph of the bra when it was first found?

How do I know that the bra clasp wasn't cut off in December?

What is the chain of evidence for the bra clasp?

Where it was found:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=164030286954784&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034#!/photo.php?fbid=164036040287542&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&pid=412718&id=106344459390034


Where it was stored at sealed crime scene for protection:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=164033556954457&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

 

[Malkmus]

Is there a photograph of the bra when it was first found?

How do I know that the bra clasp wasn't cut off in December?

What is the chain of evidence for the bra clasp?

Justinian, I could be off, but the reason we know the bra clasp was moved from its original location is because it was caught on video on the floor the day the body was discovered. Someone else could clarify, but I think it's safe to say the clasp was cut off the night of the murder.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a simple question

No, that's not how it works. You made the claim that the files were not released, it's you that needs to back that statement up with evidence.

Were the files released, yes or no?