CME's, active regions and high energy flares

Your claim is that the dark filament eruptions cause CMEs. The paper Reality Check referenced had nothing to do with any such claim.
A little nitpick here GeeMack :).
It is obvious that CMEs are not only associated with dark filament eruptions, e.g. they are also assocated with prominences.
So while MM's language suggests that he thinks that CME are only caused by dark filaments, it is unlikely that he would be foolish enough to actually think this.

In fact if MM bothers to do the research he may find that the paper uses data from an automatic filament disappearance system that looks at dark filaments. I would not be surprised at this since they should be easier to detect given the technology of a decade ago. It sounds like the detection methods have got very sophisticated since 2003 according to the more modern papers that I have seen.

The points that I have been trying to make unsuccessfully to MM are
 
Establishing Cause/Effect Links.

http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/img/latest/latest_1024_0211.mpg

If you watch the horizon around the 1:15 position, you'll notice a dark filament eruption took place today at around 9:45 UT. Thus far it's taken about 4-5 hours on average for such flares to be seen in LASCO.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c2.mpg
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c3.mpg

So far LASCO hasn't been updated, and I don't see anything related to that filament eruption yet in COR images yet either. They should be showing up relatively soon however. If there is a cause/effect connection, a flare/CME should appear at about the 1:15 position in LASCO over the next few hours.
 
Actually, the COR images on STEREO are starting to show the flare.

http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/2010/10/26/behind_20101026_cor2_512.mpg
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/2010/10/26/ahead_20101026_cor2_512.mpg

Both of them show mass flow from the top of the sun. The LASCO images, once updated, will give us a better directional view relative to the SDO system. We should see that the mass flow is concentrated around the 1:15-1:30 position in LASCO since that mass comes from the erupting filament.

The only way to establish cause/effect relationships is to follow the direction of the mass flow. Fortunately we can do that now and we have a number of views now to work with.
 
Hey, since nobody believes that I can "observe" filament eruptions and thereby prediction the direction and flow of mass we will later observe in LASCO and COR, can I just pretend to be clairvoyant and collect Randi's prize money? :)
 
FYI, it looks like we're getting close to another dark filament eruption around the 3:00 position. I'll let you know if and when it actually erupts so you can start looking for that mass flow in LASCO and COR too. :) Again, the mass flow in LASCO and COR is directly related to the mass flow we observe in the erupting filament. There will therefore be a direct physical correlation between the direction and location of the filament eruption and the mass flows observed in LASCO and COR.
 
In fact if MM bothers to do the research he may find that the paper uses data from an automatic filament disappearance system that looks at dark filaments. I would not be surprised at this since they should be easier to detect given the technology of a decade ago. It sounds like the detection methods have got very sophisticated since 2003 according to the more modern papers that I have seen

Gah! That's been my point all along! The "darkness" of the filament makes it possible to spot and track that filament. There's a value to be found in it's darker color that directly allows us to track the filament! The technology has in fact improved and I'm using SDO images rather than H-Alpha images to track those types of filament eruptions.

It's still going to be "easier" to use the fact that the filaments is "dark" to track it with a computer software program, and to detect any changes to the size and shape of that filament. It's never going to matter what kind of technology improvements we can apply to the problem, it's still a matter of tracking and following the movements of those filaments and the easiest way to isolate them is their color (intensity).
 
Gah! That's been my point all along! The "darkness" of the filament makes it possible to spot and track that filament. There's a value to be found in it's darker color that directly allows us to track the filament! The technology has in fact improved and I'm using SDO images rather than H-Alpha images to track those types of filament eruptions.

It's still going to be "easier" to use the fact that the filaments is "dark" to track it with a computer software program, and to detect any changes to the size and shape of that filament. It's never going to matter what kind of technology improvements we can apply to the problem, it's still a matter of tracking and following the movements of those filaments and the easiest way to isolate them is their color (intensity).


And obviously without describing a quantitative, objective method, I'm sure you agree it's guessing rather than science. How's it coming on that quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs, Michael? You started this thread by claiming you had one, but we're almost 500 posts into the thread and not a blessed thing so far. You do know that an honest admission that you had no such method is a valid answer, don't you? In a situation like this do you think Birkeland would have lied?
 
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And obviously without describing a quantitative, objective method, I'm sure you agree it's guessing rather than science.

Since I have quantitatively PREDICTED these mass emissions, it's "science".

How's it coming on that quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs, Michael?

Quite well thanks.

You started this thread by claiming you had one, but we're almost 500 posts into the thread and not a blessed thing so far. You do know that an honest admission that you had no such method is a valid answer, don't you?

What would you know about honesty?
 
Since I have quantitatively PREDICTED these mass emissions, it's "science".


The method you've described so far amounts to looking at a picture of existing activity and guessing that the activity will continue to exist.

Quite well thanks.


Then since you've never described that quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs, how about you describe it now? Or are we just supposed to believe your claim without any support?

What would you know about honesty?


If Birkeland were asked to describe a scientific method he claimed to have for doing something, but didn't really have it, would he have lied?
 
Gah! That's been my point all along! The "darkness" of the filament makes it possible to spot and track that filament.
Gah! That's been my point all along!
The darkness or brightness of of the filament makes it possible to spot and track that filament. It is the contrast that makes filaments visibel!

It's still going to be "easier" to use the fact that the filaments is "dark" to track it with a computer software program, and to detect any changes to the size and shape of that filament.
It's still going to be easier to use the fact that the filaments is darker than its background to track it with a computer software program, and to detect any changes to the size and shape of that filament.

It's never going to matter what kind of technology improvements we can apply to the problem, it's still a matter of tracking and following the movements of those filaments and the easiest way to isolate them is their color (intensity).
It's always going to matter what kind of technology improvements we can apply to the problem, it's still a matter of tracking and following the movements of those filaments and the easiest way to isolate them is their color (intensity).
 
Not Establishing Cause/Effect Links

So far LASCO hasn't been updated, and I don't see anything related to that filament eruption yet in COR images yet either. They should be showing up relatively soon however. If there is a cause/effect connection, a flare/CME should appear at about the 1:15 position in LASCO over the next few hours.

This does not establish a cause/effect link. In order to do this you need to
  1. Trace the development of the CME continuously from the filament eruption to the beginning of the CME.
    The LASCO observation is just a confirmation that the CME exists. It has nothing to do with the filament eruption except in establishing a statistical correlation.
  2. Provide a mechanism for the filament eruption to cause the CME
Coronal mass ejections are often associated with other forms of solar activity, most notably solar flares, but a causal relationship has not been established.
 
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The method you've described so far amounts to looking at a picture of existing activity and guessing that the activity will continue to exist.

That's a ridiculous lie. Activity happens all the time on the sun. CME's and flares are relatively rare. I didn't "guess" at that large EM flare, I PREDICTED it, I quantified my prediction, and it happened in the timeline I picked. RC used the method you described *AFTER* the first big flare took place, but I actually predicted it in advance.

Ditto on all the mass flows observed in Lasco. You could try to claim that I was looking at a pictures of existing mass flow and *KNOWING* it must continue due to the laws of physics.

Then since you've never described that quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs, how about you describe it now? Or are we just supposed to believe your claim without any support?

What's the point of saying anything to you personally? You aren't interested in what I have to say. You're only interested in arguing to hear yourself argue. I'm sitting here describing solar physical processes, and you're in pure denial of all the cause/effect relationships related to CME/flare prediction.

Not everything can be quantified. Not everything needs to be quantified. Sometimes *BASIC UNDERSTANDING* has to come first, and you haven't reached that point yet. All you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "I can't hear you". What's the point of that behavior?

If you were really any sort of "expert" on solar flare prediction, you'd have shown us your talents by now. Since you've ignored everything I've posted, refused to offer us any "explanations" of your own, you've added absolutely nothing of scientific value to this discussion. Why are you even posting to this thread?


If Birkeland were asked to describe a scientific method he claimed to have for doing something, but didn't really have it, would he have lied?

Why is it that you need to call someone a liar every day? Do you need a constant fix of rude behavior or what?
 
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This does not establish a cause/effect link. In order to do this you need to Trace the development of the CME continuously from the filament eruption to the beginning of the CME.

That would be "nice", but it's physically impossible. It's also way overkill. All we need to do is track the mass flow from the filament in terms of it's directional components and watch that mass flow show up in LASCO/COR in the correct locations based on it's original trajectory. Every filament eruption produces "some" mass, but not all of them produce "CME's". Most are categorized as "flares", but they all (all filament flares) directly relate to that filament eruption and the direction of that filament eruption.

The LASCO observation is just a confirmation that the CME exists. It has nothing to do with the filament eruption except in establishing a statistical correlation.

Boloney! The mass flow must "track" into the LASCO and COR fields of view. If it does, and does so on a timelilne that we expect based on the distances involved then we can certainly establish a "cause/effect" relationship it terms of mass flows in filament eruptions that later show up in lasco. There isn't any real mystery here. A "filament eruption' is the "cause" of the CME/FLARE. It's not some nebulous connection, there is a direct cause/effect link between the erupting filaments and the direction and flow of mass from the sun we can later observe in LASCO.

SOME EM type flares are different from filament eruption flares. They are caused by 'bright" (not dark) filaments. Those types of flares/CME's have to be treated completely differently than the filament eruption type flares.


Well, it's not been "established' until now because the technology just wasn't available to do so. SDO changes all that. We have clear, 16 megapixel images of what's going on in the solar atmosphere at a cadence that is much greater than was ever possible in any other satellite imaging system. SDO is a game changer.
 
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The method you've described so far amounts to looking at a picture of existing activity and guessing that the activity will continue to exist.

That's a lie. Activity happens all the time on the. CME's and flares are relatively rare. I didn't "guess" at that large EM flare, I PREDICTED it, I quantified my prediction, and it happened in the timeline I picked. RC used the method you described *AFTER* the first big flare took place, but I actually predicted it in advance.

Ditto on all the mass flows observed in Lasco. You could try to claim that I was looking at a pictures of existing mass flow and *KNOWING* it must continue due to the laws of physics.


The method you've described so far amounts to looking at pictures of existing activity and guessing that the activity will continue to exist. All you'd have to do to show that it's more scientific than that is describe your quantitative, objective method for making your "prediction". Yet rather than describe it, you call me a liar. If asked to describe what he claimed to be a scientific method, would Birkeland have described his method, or called the person asking for it a liar?

Then since you've never described that quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs, how about you describe it now? Or are we just supposed to believe your claim without any support?

What's the point of saying anything to you personally? You aren't interested in what I have to say. You're only interested in arguing to hear yourself argue. I'm sitting here describing solar physical processes, and you're in pure denial of all the cause/effect relationships related to CME/flare prediction.

Not everything can be quantified. Not everything needs to be quantified. Sometimes *BASIC UNDERSTANDING* has to come first, and you haven't reached that point yet.


Can we take this to mean your "method" can't be quantified, doesn't need to be quantified? It does seem like an admission that you don't have a quantitative, scientific, objective, method for predicting CMEs. Is that what you mean by, "Not everything can be quantified. Not everything needs to be quantified?"

All you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "I can't hear you". What's the point of that behavior?


Your persistence in turning your responses into personal attacks and your refusal to actually address the questions being asked are, as always, noted.

If you were really any sort of "expert" on solar flare prediction, you'd have shown us your talents by now. Since you've ignored everything I've posted, refused to offer us any "explanations" of your own, you've added absolutely nothing of scientific value to this discussion.


You're the one making a claim. It's not my responsibility to support it. I learned that when I was about eleven years old. You seem to be having trouble catching on. Would you like some help understanding that simple grade school level concept of burden of proof?

Why are you even posting to this thread?


Mostly pointing out the fact that you continue to make claims while being wholly unwilling and/or unable to support them. And occasionally I'm pointing out the logical fallacies you're trying but failing to use as arguments.

If Birkeland were asked to describe a scientific method he claimed to have for doing something, but didn't really have it, would he have lied?

Why is it that you need to call someone a liar every day? Do you need a constant fix or rude behavior or what?


The question was, if Birkeland had been asked to describe a scientific method he claimed to have for doing something, but didn't really have it, would he have lied? It's a simple yes/no question, Michael. In this situation would he have lied?
 
The method you've described so far amounts to looking at pictures of existing activity and guessing that the activity will continue to exist.

If that were actually true, then the region in question would have flared *PRIOR* to my prediction. Unfortunately for you, I beat even the first B class flare from that particular region by 5 minutes. I beat the "big" flare by 20 minutes. There had not even been a C class flare in 12 days prior to that event, and there had not been a big flare (M or higher) in almost 3 months! Your assertion is therefore a bald faced lie.
 
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c3.mpg

In the last couple of frames of the C3 images you can definitely see the mass flow in the 1:30 position. There is a direct cause/effect link to the mass we see "flow" from the surface in the filament eruptions and the mass flows we observe in LASCO. Mass in motion tends to stay in motion. The filament eruption was the start of the mass flow.
 
If that were actually true, then the region in question would have flared *PRIOR* to my prediction. Unfortunately for you, I beat even the first B class flare from that particular region by 5 minutes. I beat the "big" flare by 20 minutes. There had not even been a C class flare in 12 days prior to that event, and there had not been a big flare (M or higher) in almost 3 months! Your assertion is therefore a bald faced lie.


If you feel some drops of rain coming down you could "predict" that it's going to rain, even if it hadn't rained in years. Big deal. So what?

You can keep up your unsupported claim to have a method, or you could, you know, actually describe your method quantitatively using actual numbers for all your data, and objectively in such a way that other people can apply your method and achieve the same results as you and come to the same conclusions you've reached. You're just not going to do that, are you?

You do realize that you haven't offered any scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", and since you can't show the results of your "predictions" are statistically significant compared to the possible results from simply guessing, your "predictions" can be dismissed as guesses? So can we take your continued ignorance of the request for your method to mean you simply don't have a quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions"?

Oh, and your uncivil personal attack by persistently calling me a liar without any support is noted. If Birkeland claimed to have a legitimately scientific, objective, quantitative method for doing something and was asked to describe that method, do you suppose he would have described the method or called the person who asked a liar?
 
If you feel some drops of rain coming down....

Nothing remotely resembling rain of that magnitude had "come down" in nearly 3 months. Suddenly within a half hour there's a "big' flare. What rain was coming down GM? There had not even been a C class flare/rain in 12 days! What rain?
 
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http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c3.mpg

In the last couple of frames of the C3 images you can definitely see the mass flow in the 1:30 position. There is a direct cause/effect link to the mass we see "flow" from the surface in the filament eruptions and the mass flows we observe in LASCO. Mass in motion tends to stay in motion. The filament eruption was the start of the mass flow.
In the last couple of frames of the C3 images you can definitely see the mass flow in the 1:30 position. There is no evidence of a cause/effect link to the mass we see "flow" from the surface in the filament eruptions and the mass flows we observe in LASCO. Mass in motion tends to stay in motion. The filament eruption could have been the start of the mass flow.
 

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