Is alcoholism a disease or something else?

[Dancing David]

Ok, that's my bad... that part of the phrase was meant to be very generic. What I meant was: obviously everythin in our body is biologic, and even character has an ereditary component (even if we don't know for sure how much it is felt against environmental pressure); so, since alcoholism can derive a lot from your own psychology, your character is to be considered an important part of how and why you develop an addiction.

To sum up, I was just reenforcing the point: it is hard to discern all of the factors, we still don't know them all, and while some are very specific (like the ones you very correctly pointed out), we can't be sure of how much other aspects of you biology/psychology intervene.

Did I just come out more confusing than before...?

Well that gets to the nature of 'character' doesn't it, partly phsyiological set points and then all the learned behaviors.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I didn't know that. Perhaps I'm not common enough.

I guess you haven't read the Bible, examined the doctrines of various major Christian Denominations, been to Christian Churches, hung out with Christians, or argued with Christians very much then. But in the Christian World-view, generally speaking, everything starts with Original Sin. Disease, and Death are all due to Sin in the Christian World-view.

Of course many non-literalist, liberal, and casual Christians may not pay much attention to that Doctrine. But it is at the core of Christian Doctrine. Not so much in Judaism which doesn't have the concept of Original Sin.

But Conservative Protestant Evangelical Christianity is the dominant form of Christianity in the US. And they take those Doctrines very seriously. AA is based on Evangelical Protestantism. All of its founders and the people surrounding them (Rev Shoemaker, the good Dr Silkworth, Norman Vincent Peale et al) were all Protestants. Thus the basic tenets of AA are based on Protestant Christian Doctrine. In that Doctrine Sin=Disease, that is why the good Dr Silkworth called Christ the "Great Physician".

See the links in the post above for more information on Dr Silkworth and his relationship with Bill Wilson and AA.

GB

 

[zerospeaks]

What do you think a mindset is? Wow are you just out for a fight? Define the term mindset. Since when is 'mindset' a valid idea of science. So you tell me what a 'mindset' is and we can talk.

I agree about instincts we humans have none after six weeks.

Mindset equals state of mind? You define it, you used the term.

When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. I would call that a biological mechanism that controls a state of mind, or mindset.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Mindset equals state of mind? You define it, you used the term.

When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. I would call that a biological mechanism that controls a state of mind, or mindset.

You do know that's Lamarckism, don't you? You know...the largely discredited theory of evolution that postulated that traits acquired in an individual biological unit's lifetime are passed on to its offspring. It lost out to Natural Selection as the mechanism of Evolutionary change.

GB

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Mindset equals state of mind? You define it, you used the term.

When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. I would call that a biological mechanism that controls a state of mind, or mindset.

While Gandalfs Beard pretty much addressed this, I would be curious if you have any cites that support this claim .

 

[Jeff Corey]

Mindset equals state of mind? You define it, you used the term.

When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. I would call that a biological mechanism that controls a state of mind, or mindset.

I doubt that very much and I have specialized in conditioning and learning for quite a while.

And a more technical definition of "mindset" is "psychological set, a tendency to respond in a certain certain way when presented with a problem."
An example is given here in #23, Psychological set and the solution of anagrams. http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4311070.aspx

 

[zerospeaks]

You do know that's Lamarckism, don't you? You know...the largely discredited theory of evolution that postulated that traits acquired in an individual biological unit's lifetime are passed on to its offspring. It lost out to Natural Selection as the mechanism of Evolutionary change.

While Gandalfs Beard pretty much addressed this, I would be curious if you have any cites that support this claim .

Already posted it TWICE. You guys don't look at what I post and then demand evidence?
Thats a nice form of debating you got there.
You can never lose.

No it's not Lamarckism it is epigentics.

Let's try this again.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19150054

 

[Jeff Corey]

Already posted it TWICE. You guys don't look at what I post and then demand evidence?
Thats a nice form of debating you got there.
You can never lose.

No it's not Lamarckism it is epigentics.

Let's try this again.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19150054

No. You said, "When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. "
Read the study again.

 

[zerospeaks]

No. You said, "When they can condition a fear into an animal and then the offspring are BORN with the fear. "
Read the study again.

They simulated maltreatment and early childhood trauma which effected genetic transcription in the animals and THEN IT WAS PASSED ON TO ITS OFFSPRING.
Perhaps I should have used the word "stress" instead of fear to be more technically correct.

The whole point being, we have discovered that an outside influence can change the way our genes express themselves and it can be PASSED ON TO OFFSPRING.

Even if we didn't have that, the statement, "there is no biological mechanism that effects a mindset" is so mind numbingly false I can't believe it was not pointed out by everyone on here how wrong it was.

 

[lionking]

Still waiting for evidence that alcoholics are born and that these "born alcoholics" are still alcoholics even if they don't touch a drop.

 

[zerospeaks]

Still waiting for evidence that alcoholics are born and that these "born alcoholics" are still alcoholics even if they don't touch a drop.

If alcoholics are defined by their genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol... which they are.... then all you need is to realize that some people are born that way.

I don't get the problem with this.

 

[lionking]

If alcoholics are defined by their genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol... which they are.... then all you need is to realize that some people are born that way.

I don't get the problem with this.

You might not have a problem with this, but you must have missed the word "evidence"

 

[zerospeaks]

Are you denying people are born with a predisposition to alcohol....?
Born with... as in before they take a drink...
as in... they are ...born that way..

Oh forget it!

 

[AlBell]

Still waiting for evidence that alcoholics are born and that these "born alcoholics" are still alcoholics even if they don't touch a drop.

How would things change for you whether one is, or isn't 'born that way'?

 

[lionking]

Are you denying people are born with a predisposition to alcohol....?
Born with... as in before they take a drink...
as in... they are ...born that way..

Oh forget it!

You're the one who thinks predisposition=certainty. Or have you backpedalled from this very silly contention?

 

[lionking]

How would things change for you whether one is, or isn't 'born that way'?

I'm just asking zerospeaks to correct his earlier contention that all alcoholics are born that way even if they don't have a drink. He's incredibly stubborn though, so I don't really expect it.

 

[zerospeaks]

I'm just asking zerospeaks to correct his earlier contention that all alcoholics are born that way even if they don't have a drink. He's incredibly stubborn though, so I don't really expect it.

According to your logic gay people aren't gay unless they engage in sexual activities.
I know gay virgins.

 

[lionking]

According to your logic gay people aren't gay unless they engage in sexual activities.
I know gay virgins.

Evasion noted.

So no evidence then. It's not so head to admit you have none.

 

[zerospeaks]

So no evidence then. It's not so head to admit you have none.

I posted that study earlier which showed a correlation between the expression of a gene and how badly people drink.
but I guess that evidence wasn't good enough for your movable goal posts.

What would you take as evidence that alocholics are born that way?

 

[lionking]

I posted that study earlier which showed a correlation between the expression of a gene and how badly people drink.
but I guess that evidence wasn't good enough for your movable goal posts.

What would you take as evidence that alocholics are born that way?

You didn't use the word "correlation" before, you made the blanket statement "alcoholics are born". Are you still saying that all alcoholics are born (as you clearly did)? Did you ignore the evidence that people can and do become alcoholics without any genetic predisposition? Can people become alcoholic without this predisposition or not?