And ... Germany Gets Back To Being German

[Giz]

There is a saying about London and the US:

'People go to America to become Americans. People go to London to be themselves'

Hmmm, sounds like a saying that was coined in… London. Honestly, if you think that Americans are any less 'themselves' or varied than Londoners then you have obviously never been to NY or LA or…etc etc.

Having lived in both London and the States, here's my 2 cents/tuppence:

All that the melting pot/salad bowl 'American' approach is saying is: There should be an element of self-identification on the part of the immigrant as an American and cherish certain civic/constitutional values. They are free to keep any non-conflicting elements of their original culture (be it the cuisine or whatever).

When the British approach works, it is because there is some self-identification on the part of the immigrant as being part of British society and adherence to British laws/democracy etc. Where it doesn't work, and alienation develops is often because those ('melting bowl') elements are missing.

Note: this isn't saying that it always works in the USA (there are immigration successes and failures in both countries) but I feel that the US approach, by emphasizing a shared bond of citizenry, is probably superior for a healthy democratic society.

 

[Thunder]

There is a saying about London and the US:

'People go to America to become Americans. People go to London to be themselves'

Unless you are talking about New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Lancaster County, PA, etc etc..

 

[Ryokan]

I love how that debate goes back and forth.

Some years ago, I read an article by some French sociology professor who claimed that the French approach to immigration led to much less discontent then the Dutch approach.
I guess that not a month later, that same woman was peeking through the curtains at her burning Renault as the riots broke out.

Not so happy after all, those immigrants.

Well, rioting is an important part of French culture - so I guess integration has succeeded in that regard..

 

[Ryokan]

This.
Multi-culturalism has failed in Canada as well.
A melting pot like the US asks people to integrate in society.
That is a better system IMO.

Melting pot doesn't mean newcomers become copies of the people already there. A melting pot suggests different cultures come together into one - i.e. that everyone takes something from each other. If people are asked to integrate and assimilate into an already established culture, that's not a melting pot.

 

[Eskarina]

I heard a German politician saying that Merkel's party had blocked or opposed plans to provide funding for immigrants to be taught German. Which to me seems a rather short sighted approach.

Sorry to barge in so late, but that would be news to me. I work in adult education (administration) and we have had over the last five years and still have state-funded German courses. Some immigrants get it for free, others have to pay for it and those on social security are obliged to take the courses if they don't want their benefits cut.

It might be that the CDU blocked certain initiatives or propositions but they certainly did not stop funding state-financed German courses.

 

[Thunder]

If people are asked to integrate and assimilate into an already established culture, that's not a melting pot.

Hasn't Britain been a melting pot?

As far as I can see, they have adopted a lot from different cultures, such as curry.

 

[Beanbag]

Unless you are talking about New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Lancaster County, PA, etc etc..

And Texas.

My favorite tee shirt saying from the 80's and 90's: "We don't care how you did it up North."

Beanbag

 

[Ryokan]

Hasn't Britain been a melting pot?

As far as I can see, they have adopted a lot from different cultures, such as curry.

I would say Britain has been a melting pot, yes. Especially London, and other larger cities.

New York has also traditionally been a melting pot, and has adopted parts of most of the larger groups of immigrants coming to the city, like Italians, Irish, Jews, etc.

That's the point, in a melting pot there's a mutual exchange and blending together of culture - not assimilation by one culture into another.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Celt, Pict, Roman, Saxon, Viking, Norman, Catholic, Anglican, Calvinist... Britain is a melting pot all right, but a pot brim full of blood and with a very hot fire beneath it.

None of those cultures survived intact and none of them died quietly. If Britain can assimilate Pakistani Islamic culture without a significant amount of bloodshed it will be a first in our history. The men who died at Dunbar, at Worcester and at Culloden were all white and nominally Christian , as were those at Omagh- (except one Mormon).
I can manage without any religious wars in future. Let's just ditch the crap and keep the curry .

 

[Thunder]

I would say Britain has been a melting pot, yes. Especially London, and other larger cities. .

indeed.

 

[DarthFishy]

I recently returned from a week long trip to Germany and Denmark. It was very interesting for myself to observe how much the Turkish immigrants stood out. You must understand that I can't speak German and I have never been there before so I have little idea what the average German is like, but it was still obvious to me that many of the immigrants really lived apart from other Germans.

Maybe it's different if you are not a tourist, and maybe it was due to the fact that back home (in South Africa) I'm used to quite a bit of cultural diversity, but it was noteworthy nonetheless.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Its only a problem if it leads to some kind of ghetto situation.

Funny thing: there is a Chinese neighbourhood in my town. I used to live there.
The city has put up huge colourful gates with dragons and Chinese characters at the entrance of Chinatown. The street names are also available in Chinese characters.

Everyone thinks it's great. You can go their for great food, buy weird Chinese nicnacs and get a haircut, massage and -it is rumoured- much more.

Now a I dare anyone to propose similar marketing spin for a predominately Turkish neighbourhood in Germany or the Netherlands.

 

[Ryokan]

I recently returned from a week long trip to Germany and Denmark. It was very interesting for myself to observe how much the Turkish immigrants stood out. You must understand that I can't speak German and I have never been there before so I have little idea what the average German is like, but it was still obvious to me that many of the immigrants really lived apart from other Germans.

Some do, but not all. Some of the Jews of New York really stand out as well.