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Science Disproves Evolution

The Dress Up as a Child Forum is on another planet. Please take your Death Star there immediately.

Reported. Rule 12.

If you can only attack the posters, perhas you should not be here.


The subject is Science Disproves Evolution. Leftist/atheist biases and hate are an inextricable component of all things Darwinian.

This is the religion sub-forum. The Politics section is for discussing rightist and leftist biases. If you want to discuss science, go to the science section.


Please, please. Go to the Death Star. If there is no corner inside, MAKE ONE and stand in it.

Attack the argument.


It was for the express purpose of providing EVIDENCE that Haeckel fabricated his hoax. Darwin was delighted.



You see, this is what seems to escape you. Nobody contests the parts of lies that are NOT lies. That's not what makes them LIES. It's the part that ARE LIES and HOAXES that makes them.... lies and hoaxes.

Thats nice. Lies are usually outed as such, so are Hoaxes. In the scientific community, it is found out by other scientists who examine the evidence, and attempt to repeat the experiments.


while claiming for 129 years "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny."
yeah, right

it's all so very ..... "scientific"



You don't understand how science works.

Darwinists are always demanding SOMETHING to take the place of Darwinism.

Good thing that while Charles Darwin proposed the Theory of Evolution, it has advanced much farther than his day. 'Darwinism' as a slur really is not accurate. It really is not the same theory as he envisioned it.

I have not suggested that there IS anything even as good, much less better.

The fact is, your claims of descent from a common ancestor must stand on its own two, or six, or eight, or one hundred feet. It must withstand the rigors of questioning, and challenges, without end.

Good thing it does stand up to challenges then.

Anyone from within your Hallowed Ground, who genuflects to Charles Darwin, is permitted to suggest the minutest variation, or even some major, almost inconceivable modifications to the "gentle, step by million year step," such as
propounded by Stephen Jay Gould.

No hallowed ground. No worshiping. Just the science. And, shock of shocks! If something else should come around, that fits the science, evidence and experiments to replace The Theory of Evolution, then so be it. It gets replaced. It is what Skeptics do. Unlike the True Believers of God, who would never believe anything else.

But genuine doubts that macro-evolution is not up to the task it purports to achieve are never tolerated for one second.

If you were honest, you would concede that such a position should not be attacked wantonly by invoking the Bible, and a flat earth, and the abject stupidity of the proponent. But you never will make such a concession. None of you.

Evolution is Evolution. There is no Micro. There is no Macro. If you did not want to bring Religion up in this, then suggest that this thread be moved away from the religion section, and to the science one. Because, frankly, We've got Pahu who is quoting creationist drivel, and you, who are screaming leftist conspiracy.

Its been heard before. And The Theory of Evolution is still here.
 
Your point is well taken. Ernst Haeckel must not have created these hoaxes after all.
One person's fraud real or imagined) doesn't invalidate the evidence that has been collected.

So again, How do you explain Human Chromosome 2 fusion?
 
I quite understand the compelling evidence of the hominid line. I do not dispute that neo-Darwinism is the best theory we have now. I have never said otherwise. I have not once suggested throwing it out. Just because you fear others may wish to do so, or you misinterpret their and my points of view as advocating far more than we do, is no reason for you to go ballistic, as Darwinists always do go ballistic.

Okay, so just what is your point, then? I've asked several times now.

It's starting to appear as though you are not interested in the scientific intellectual discussion you claim to appreciate. Instead, you seem to be using the evolution debate as a vehicle by which to sling mud at random people. That's nothing new to this forum, but at least be honest about it. If that is not the case, then please, be upfront about the conclusion you are attempting to demonstrate.
 
You don't understand how science works.
Darwinists are always demanding SOMETHING to take the place of Darwinism.
I have not suggested that there IS anything even as good, much less better.
The fact is, your claims of descent from a common ancestor must stand on its own two, or six, or eight, or one hundred feet. It must withstand the rigors of questioning, and challenges, without end.

Yeah... No you are the one not understanding...

A scientific theory is an approximation of reality. The goal is too get as close as possible, but it still is an approximation.

They are plenty of theories out there that actually are known to be imperfect. But they are the best we have, so far. These are accepted with a caveat.

Now, I am not talking about the TOE here.
The TOE is actually very well supported, it is often considered one of the best supported scientific theory in existence. A few of these lines of evidence have been brought to you, I don't believe that you commented on any of them...



Anyone from within your Hallowed Ground, who genuflects to Charles Darwin, is permitted to suggest the minutest variation, or even some major, almost inconceivable modifications to the "gentle, step by million year step," such as
propounded by Stephen Jay Gould.
But genuine doubts that macro-evolution is not up to the task it purports to achieve are never tolerated for one second.
If you were honest, you would concede that such a position should not be attacked wantonly by invoking the Bible, and a flat earth, and the abject stupidity of the proponent. But you never will make such a concession. None of you.

Because, ultimately, the TOE is so well supported that denying it make as much sense as believing in a flat earth.
You deny it and yet, have yet to provide a shred of evidence that discredit the theory of evolution. So far, all you brought up where lies and quote mines and false assertion by creationists...

You claim that "macro-evolution" can not happen, that there is a limit to what selective breeding can achieve.
And yet, you have provided no reason why that would be. I believe it was you that asserted that mutation could not provide new information, but you did not comment when you were proven wrong...
You offered no evidence that it is the case, no experiments and no peer-reviewed publication, just the assertion of some creationists...
 
I just posted the facts on Darwinists the world over making FOOLS of YOURSELVES for 129 years, courtesy of Ernst Haeckel.

Quick question: why are creationists, who are the ones with the least knowledge of evolution, always trying to educate people on what evolution is ? Shouldn't you, like, study or something ?
 
Let me REPEAT:


Among my many sources, none of them Jonathan Wells, were the authors of Biology, who admitted that they reprinted Haeckel's Hoaxes in their 1997 edition.


This idea has been pushed back into the news recently by the news that Haeckel's drawings of embryonic similarities were not correct. British embryologist Michael Richardson and his colleagues published an important paper in the August 1997 issue of Anatomy & Embryology showing that Haeckel had fudged his drawings to make the early stages of embryos appear more alike than they actually are! As it turns out, Haeckel's contemporaries had spotted the fraud during his lifetime, and got him to admit it. However, his drawings nonetheless became the source material for diagrams of comparative embryology in nearly every biology textbook, including ours! – Ken Miller and Joe Levine, authors of Biology – The Living Science

Yours was not a fair and honest comment.
One person cannot begin to address a monolithic gang.
Darwinists everywhere have not the slightest concept that "debate" is impossible when one side numbers in the scores and the other numbers exactly 1, and where the former scores of people never EVER concede a single point, no matter how valid it may be. Nor do the scores against 1 ever dignify their sole opponent in the slightest, preferring to make the most outrageous, most hateful ad hominem attacks possible.

They range from "you don't understand" to "you quotemine" to "you cited a source we enjoy making fun of".

Kid stuff by your side, really. But it matches your avatars.

Let's be clear: Do you think that the errors in Haeckel's drawings invalidate the theory of evolution by natural selection?




P.S. I'm still curious to know the correct context of the rules regarding slave ownership laid out in Exodus chapter 21. You can present it in this thread, if you like.
 
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In 1868, Ernst Haeckel presented a series of pictures which he claimed represented the development of embryos of various widely different classifications of animals. Their similarities were as stunning as they were fraudulent.

Haeckel's hoax has been repeated from 1868 to at least 1997, over 129 years.

Such is the pristine, efficient, and extraordinarily "intellectual" majesterium of science, always ALWAYS claimed to be "self-policing.

129 years, to expose this fraud.

Now the hoax itself is not the point of focus.

No, the real problem is that self-aggrandizing scientists ON THE LEFT always bray their credentialism, their intellectual superiority, their cocksure, absolute certainty of Darwinism, or atheism, or climate change.

There is NEVER the slightest doubt on your side of the aisle. Any commentary not approved by your committee is laughed into the pit of flat-earth ridicule.

Why, pray tell, didn't all the world's esteemed leftist scientists "self-police" Haeckel's drawings in something less than 129 years?

Please, don't answer. Not one of you would possibly answer that question fairly and honestly.

So 1977, Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Stephen Jay Gould . 1874 to 1977 is 103 years?

Yes or no.
 
If you were honest, you would concede that such a position should not be attacked wantonly by invoking the Bible, and a flat earth, and the abject stupidity of the proponent. But you never will make such a concession. None of you.

So what do you think of antibiotic resistance, and then what do you think of the fungi, plants and animals making up 10% of biodiversity?

One seems to shows that the passage of traits through reproductive success leads to traits becoming prevalent in populations, the other seems to support the idea of common descent.

I am will to read and try to understand what you have to say. I will even make concessions.
 
Your point is well taken. Ernst Haeckel must not have created these hoaxes after all.
You do understand that different words have different meanings, many of us know that Haeckel was wrong and made mistaken assumptions. The question was about something differnt.
Science overlooked and neglected them for 129 years, but now with a single sentence from you, all is made clear. Ontogeny once again recapitulates phylogeny.

Thank YOU, Scientist.



The question was about something else. And the theory of EH was questioned from the beggining, and as noted SJ Gould pretty much addressed it in 1977, 103 years.
 
///




The question was about something else. And the theory of EH was questioned from the beggining, and as noted SJ Gould pretty much addressed it in 1977, 103 years.

It didn't take in 1977, did it.

Yes or no.



Biology changed its Haeckel Hoax drawings in its 1998 edition.



This idea has been pushed back into the news recently by the news that Haeckel's drawings of embryonic similarities were not correct. British embryologist Michael Richardson and his colleagues published an important paper in the August 1997 issue of Anatomy & Embryology showing that Haeckel had fudged his drawings to make the early stages of embryos appear more alike than they actually are! As it turns out, Haeckel's contemporaries had spotted the fraud during his lifetime, and got him to admit it. However, his drawings nonetheless became the source material for diagrams of comparative embryology in nearly every biology textbook, including ours! – Ken Miller and Joe Levine, authors of Biology – The Living Science
 
Your subtraction is sixth grade level, at least.

1868 was the start of the hoax.
Two authors, cited elsewhere, published it in their 1997 edition.

I'll let you do that math. I know you can.

Nevertheless, in terms of contemporary science, the difference between 103 years and more years, in exposing this primitive hoax....

Come on, people. Weak. Extremely weak.

Attempts to cover up such egregious oversight for so very long is inexcusable.
And yet you all rush around doing your best to excuse it.

Debate with such people who are so contemptibly dishonest is really impossible.

The publication date was 1874 for EH's drawings. And who published the statement in 1997 , was it an evolutionary biologist, or was it a general textbook written by a committee?

You will note I am discussing this with you, your hyperbole is un needed.

There are multiple kinds of data that support the theory of evolution, it was not just based upon Haeckel, who was in error. And hopefully you understand teh nature of theories and truth?

You do know that people make mistakes? Like many major physics people.
 
Yours was not a fair and honest comment.
One person cannot begin to address a monolithic gang.
Darwinists everywhere have not the slightest concept that "debate" is impossible when one side numbers in the scores and the other numbers exactly 1, and where the former scores of people never EVER concede a single point, no matter how valid it may be. Nor do the scores against 1 ever dignify their sole opponent in the slightest, preferring to make the most outrageous, most hateful ad hominem attacks possible.
So let's have a game change.

Instead of labeling "2" sides in this debate,let's define each individual as a separate opinion. A fully autonomous entity capable of reaching their own conclusions.

Which points do you feel are evidence against evolution?

So far, you have presented an example of fraud in embryology photos. I agree and fully concede that these drawings are not evidence in support of evolution.

now, do you believe that this fraud invalidates other evidence as well? If so, why?
 
Nicely done, Joobz. I'm pretty sure he's incapable of winning (or even attempting) the intellectual game, so play it and beat him.
 
Haeckel had fudged his drawings to make the early stages of embryos appear more alike than they actually are! As it turns out, Haeckel's contemporaries had spotted the fraud during his lifetime, and got him to admit it.

Science overlooked and neglected them for 129 years, but now with a single sentence from you, all is made clear. Ontogeny once again recapitulates phylogeny


Aren't these too statements contradictory? Either scientists did spot the mistake during Haeckel's own lifetime and got him to admit it, or they neglected it for 129 years... I mean, one could imagine that Haeckel lived for more than 129 years after publishing the drawings, but that seems like the only way to reconcile the two...


By the way, here is a summary of the actual paper (you can found it here, as usual, creationists are over selling it.

aeckel (1874) had claimed that members of all vertebrate classes pass through an identical evolutionarily conserved "phylotypic" stage. Until this new paper appeared, it was assumed that Haeckel was correct and that there was a particular stage of development that was identical in all vertebrates. Only later in development would specific differences appear. Interestingly, there was some discussion as to what exactly this stage was (Richardson 1995). This conserved stage was sometimes considered the neurula stage (Wolpert 1991), the "pharyngula" stage (characterized by the branchial arches; Ballard 1981), the tailbud stage (Slack et al. 1993), or the stages between those of headfold and tailbud (Duboule 1994).

And

But Haeckel's drawings are wrong. Photographing actual embryos at these stages, Richardson and colleagues show that Haeckel's drawings are oversimplified to the point of obscuring important differences between classes of vertebrates. The Richardson et al. paper does not dispute that there is a highly conserved embryonic stage among the vertebrate classes. Indeed, at the late tailbud stage, vertebrate embryos of most all classes possess "somites, neural tube, optic anlagen, notochord, and pharyngeal pouches." However, these authors do criticise the notion that this stage is nearly identical in all species and that differences between the classes can be resolved only after subsequent development.


So, to summarize, while the general theory had long been rejected, one of Haeckel's observations, that the embryo's early stages are almost identical, was still seen as valid (it actually supported a older, less ambitious, law called 'Von Baer's laws that are still considered valid).
Now, the question is when do the developmental pathways diverge? While not uncontested Haeckel's suggestion, that the divergence occurred after the tailbud stage, was generally accepted.
Now, it seems like these suggestion was based on over-simplified drawing that blurred out some difference and it is suggested that the difference actually occur earlier than that...
Fair enough, I say, but hardly as fundamental a shakedown that implied...


By the way, the article also explained the surprising resilience of Haeckel's drawings:
First, Haeckel's illustration was reproduced in Romane's (1901) Darwin and After Darwin. From here, the illustration entered Anglophone biology, "sanitized" from Haeckel. Second, the picture can be used (as it has been in several developmental biology books) to illustrate von Baer's principles rather than Haeckel's biogenetic law. K. E. von Baer had noted that the general features of a large group of animals appear earlier in the embryo than do the specialized features.

By the way, somewhat ironically, von Baer was opposed to 'transformationism'.



By the way, I also found this quote from Darwin (here):
It is not true that one passes through the form of a lower group, though no doubt fish are more nearly related to foetal state
.
While this assay pre-date the formulation of Haeckel's theory, we can see that Darwin had already examined and rejected its core idea...
 
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The subject is Science Disproves Evolution.

Actually, no. The title is "Science Disproves Evolution" but the opening posts deals only with Noah's Flood and the opening poster's premise (which is repeated on every page of this thread) is that the Bible is infallibly correct in all things, including a 6000-year-old Earth, and that anything that contradicts the Bible must be wrong. If the topic really were simply about the scientific evidence for and against evolution,then the thread would have been moved to the science forum. This is a religiously-themed thread.



Leftist/atheist biases and hate are an inextricable component of all things Darwinian.

I think you missed one of my previous posts


Here is a poll which shows that while the majority of Republicans doubt evolution, 30% do believe in evolution. While the percentage of believers among Democrats is higher (57%) it is also relatively high for independents as well (61%). Therefore it is quite inaccurate to label the proponents of evolution, leftists.

And as I said in one of your other threads, there are right-wing atheists on this message board.

.........
I'll ask you the same question I asked the opening poster: if there really were a flood, why would God go to such great lengths to hide all the evidence of it?
 
I already tried that one. The answer I got from Pahu was, "In my own words: read the book."

He (she? FSM, I hope it's not a woman...) is simply not going to commit to anything in his (her? its?) own words. If he (she? it?) has his (her? its?) own words to begin with and isn't just some kind of cut-and-paste machine.
Yep. It appears s/he is using a fairly well known list of creationist "arguments" that dates back to the old days of Usenet.
 
In 1868, Ernst Haeckel presented a series of pictures which he claimed represented the development of embryos of various widely different classifications of animals. Their similarities were as stunning as they were fraudulent.

Haeckel's hoax has been repeated from 1868 to at least 1997, over 129 years.

Such is the pristine, efficient, and extraordinarily "intellectual" majesterium of science, always ALWAYS claimed to be "self-policing.

129 years, to expose this fraud.
Another lie.:mad:
While creationists such as Well often state nonsense like this it is as untrue as the rest of their nonsensical ramblings. In fact the list used by Wells and those who blindly quote him (Sedgwick, Garstang,de Beer, Ballard, Gould, Elinson, Oppenheimer, Richardson et cetera) universally condemn the idea that embryonic development follows the evolutionary pattern. To take Sedgwick as an example; he compiled an extensive list of objections to recapitulation as formulated by von Baer and Haeckel and rejected it as an untenable model. This was back in 1894..........
You really need to Do The Research in future.


No, the real problem is that self-aggrandizing scientists ON THE LEFT always bray their credentialism, their intellectual superiority, their cocksure, absolute certainty of Darwinism, or atheism, or climate change.

There is NEVER the slightest doubt on your side of the aisle. Any commentary not approved by your committee is laughed into the pit of flat-earth ridicule.
So in addition to rejecting the reality of evolution by natural selection you're a god botherer and a climate change conspiracist. Oh dear.
Are you a flat earther as well? Moon landing refusnik? 9/11 truther?

Why, pray tell, didn't all the world's esteemed leftist scientists "self-police" Haeckel's drawings in something less than 129 years?

Please, don't answer. Not one of you would possibly answer that question fairly and honestly.
As I've shown, this is a lie.
 

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