Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[Roboramma]

Sure, I'll answer a few before I nap.

Thanks I'm about to run to work myself.

I don't know, I suppose they don't?

I'm not really sure anymore. I used to be very concerned with it, but nowadays I'm finding myself more and more misanthropic that I'm beginning to really hate humanity.

I actually have some sympathy with this view. I have a deep sense of awe at the rest of life on this planet. I think that the interconnectedness of it is something that we are only really starting to understand, and the amount that we don't know (about the smaller forms of life, in particular) is vast. I hope we can learn more and more.
And while I disagree with your suggestion that other animals are as intelligent at humans, I am still awed by the level of intelligence that they do have. I think that while you are mistaken too far in one direction, many others go too far in the other and see us as a completely separate category.
I think chimpanzees have emotions that are very similar in some ways to ours, and many other animals have levels of cognition, etc. that suggest that if our lives have value, so do theirs.

Those are my personal viewpoints, supported by the evidence that I've been exposed to over the years. I can see the beauty in a spider's web and in the interaction of a colony of ants. I think that every species that is lost to extinction is a tragedy, and its a tragedy that we should do much more than we currently are to try to avoid.

But, whatever value I see in other life, whatever beauty there is in a giraffe or honeybee, is multiplied many fold in a human. I mean that literally. I can't think of any characteristic or quality in a an animal that I find truly beautiful that isn't mirrored in at least some humans.
Can you?

So, yes, I am horrified, personally, at some of the things being done to the natural world, but humans are no more without value than any other form of life. In fact, whatever gives life value, at least from my perspective, is things that we have in greatest quantity.

Why are you assuming the herbal medicine I take has heavy metals, surely not ALL of it does?

Perhaps I assumed you were taking ayurvedic medicines. But the real point seemed to be that you can't know what's in the herbal medicines you're taking, so why are you assuming that they don't?

 

[TFian]

Thanks I'm about to run to work myself.

No problem.

And while I disagree with your suggestion that other animals are as intelligent at humans,

I should have picked my words more wisely. Rather than say they were as intelligent as humans, I should have said they weren't as lacking of intelligence, as say, dirt piles, as I've heard many times before from others.

I think chimpanzees have emotions that are very similar in some ways to ours, and many other animals have levels of cognition, etc. that suggest that if our lives have value, so do theirs.

Yes, I'd agree with this.

But, whatever value I see in other life, whatever beauty there is in a giraffe or honeybee, is multiplied many fold in a human. I mean that literally. I can't think of any characteristic or quality in a an animal that I find truly beautiful that isn't mirrored in at least some humans.
Can you?

Oh well yes. Humans have many of the positive, and negative effects of many animal species, magnified. This makes for a good, and bad mix, I think.

So, yes, I am horrified, personally, at some of the things being done to the natural world, but humans are no more without value than any other form of life. In fact, whatever gives life value, at least from my perspective, is things that we have in greatest quantity.

What things do you believe give life value?

Perhaps I assumed you were taking ayurvedic medicines. But the real point seemed to be that you can't know what's in the herbal medicines you're taking, so why are you assuming that they don't?

No, I never dabbled in ayurvedic medicine, that's usually a Hindu thing. (Disclosure, I am a Muslim, or at least, my family traditionally has been for a long time)

But, about the ones I'm taking, why would I assume they have heavy metal toxin poisoning?

 

[TFian]

Nope.

I meant more humans going to the ends of the solar system, but ok.

Is not.

Of course it's not. But in my ideal world, humans would be absent. Actually that’s not quite true. My truly ideal world is a world with more wild salmon every year than the year before, more migratory songbirds, more natural forest communities, more fish in the ocean, less dioxin in every mother’s breast milk. Likely that would take the extinction of mankind, which has been killing the planet for hundreds of thousands of years. Of course, will mankind go extinct anytime soon? I can hope, but I doubt it's going to happen. Still, I can dream.

Indeed, you've indicated that you are willing to use force against anyone who resists such a fate.

When have I said that?

And so it turns out that I am not, after all, interested in what you have to say about Kerala. I certainly couldn't trust it to have even the remotest connection to reality, and I can't trust your opinions to be rational even in light of what you believe.

*shrugs* I can't say I'm going to get too worked up over that, since you were the one that asked originally anyway.

In short, welcome to my ignore list.

Cheers, it's been fun

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not sure IQ is such a good measure to determine such things. Most blacks for example, have the IQ of an institutionalized retard, yet they seem to be able to achieve self sufficiency, usually.

You are arrogant and lack information, you are also very wrong. So I assume you will not ever provide that information as to your decision. Considering that institutionalization usually does not occur until IQ of < 40 and most african amaricans test at 85 you are so wrong.
If sub-saharan africans score low because of lack of schooling then you are also wrong.

So I assume you are uniformed or a racist.

 

[Dancing David]

Did it ever have an abundance of trees?

I see you can't understand simple english and have no manners. The truth is that the elephants destroy them. But of course you blinkered little word is so far out of balace that yu never actually read more than woo trash.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm thinking more along the lines of where John Zerzan says we should be.

I notice now that you are just a parrot, you can't even muster enough to know what YOU think and explain it. So prefed ideas are all you are capable of. Explain what YOU think the 'proper place' is.

 

[Dancing David]

Actually, I want humankind to go extinct.

So you are a misanthrope, I am about to just say get help, you need it. You are obviously depressed or playing games.

You don't really care about nature at all, so you just are obsessed.

 

[Dancing David]

Why is the latter preferable? This makes no sense to me.

To be fair, I am "educating myself" (if you mean school) and am involved with someone.

You are depressed, get help.

 

[Dancing David]

But isn't to the ends of the solar system a bit out of reach?

No, there is no reason to go there.

 

[Dancing David]

I didn't get it from him no.

You are depressed get help.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not though. I couldn't care less if I was considered "clinically psychopathic".

You are depressed get help.

 

[Dancing David]

By what means? How does one become more "functional"? Sounds like "normal" to me.

In short, no it is not.

If you really want to talk about it then I will discuss it with you. I will start a thread on the difference between normal and functioning.

 

[Dancing David]

Sounds like mind control to me.



Ah well ok. I still don't want their drugs in me.

Also, empathy is a luxury good, one I couldn't afford anyway.

You can get help without medication, you are depressed , get help.

 

[Dancing David]

Actually, I suggested others do so, but in reality, it was hyperbole. Bad choice of words on my part. I do not actually support or advise anyone to brandish firearms towards anybody, however, within any legal means I have, I would fight any attempt to pollute my body with psychotropic medication.

No one, can, which if you read about reality instead of your apocolyptic fairy tales you would know. You can not be forced to take medication against your will. I am very familiar with this, in reality and legal terms.

There is only one situation where people are forcibly medicated and one is an extension of the other.

If you go to the ER and are restrained and still threatening harm to others, a doctor may chose (against the law) to give you a short acting sedative. This is however not legal in the majority of states.

In a clinical hospital setting some states again allow for forcible chemical restraint, but only when you are trying to harm others. And most do not.

But it is against the law to force medications on people in any other situations. Now if you present as an unconscious trauma victim you may be treated without expressed consent.

But it is a myth that people are forced to take psych meds.

 

[TFian]

I notice now that you are just a parrot, you can't even muster enough to know what YOU think and explain it. So prefed ideas are all you are capable of. Explain what YOU think the 'proper place' is.

I think the proper place for humanity is the wilderness. One of infinite sustainability, without the drawbacks of domestication, and to be truly free.

 

[Roboramma]

I think the proper place for humanity is the wilderness. One of infinite sustainability, without the drawbacks of domestication, and to be truly free.

Except, as has been pointed out, it isn't a place of infinite sustainability for us. Remember the megafauna extinctions that were brought up earlier? They happened in every place that humans have moved to in the last 50,000 years. That is, australia, new zealand, north/south america, madagascar, pacific islands, and other places.
Why? Because hunter-gatherers are less interested in sustainability than us destructive post-industrial societies. Because when your choice is either kill the Moa or starve, you kill the Moa. But more than that, when your choice is kill the Moa and gain the respect of your peers, or let it live, perhaps to be killed by someone else in your tribe or another tribe, you kill the Moa.

 

[TFian]

Except, as has been pointed out, it isn't a place of infinite sustainability for us. Remember the megafauna extinctions that were brought up earlier? They happened in every place that humans have moved to in the last 50,000 years. That is, australia, new zealand, north/south america, madagascar, pacific islands, and other places.
Why? Because hunter-gatherers are less interested in sustainability than us destructive post-industrial societies. Because when your choice is either kill the Moa or starve, you kill the Moa. But more than that, when your choice is kill the Moa and gain the respect of your peers, or let it live, perhaps to be killed by someone else in your tribe or another tribe, you kill the Moa.

Well, I'm speaking of pre tribal humanity. Even in tribal humanity, they couldn't erect the destruction on the level our industrial civilization currently is. Extinction isn't my concern so much, that's natural to evolution. Destruction of the biosphere is the problem though.

 

[Roboramma]

And there's something else I missed in your post: the idea that life in the wild is a life of "true freedom". That's a false dream. It's one that we can and often do realise with the help of modern civilization, but it didn't exist in a wild state.

The very idea of freedom is probably a new idea that came about after people had the freedom to spend their lives contemplating such issues. But what sort of freedom do you think can be found in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle? Freedom to starve if the rains don't come? Freedom to die of infection after a simple wound? Freedom to be infected by multiple parasites?

Certainly not the freedom to travel. Not the freedom to see other cultures. Not the freedom to learn about the great web of life on this planet, beyond a practical understanding of the species in a very specific locality, with no understanding of how they came to exist, the intricacies of their interactions, their relationship to each other and ourselves, or any understanding whatever of the great mass of life (microscopic and thus invisible) that goes unnoticed.
Freedom to listen to great music or be influenced by great works of art? Alas, a life in the wild is perhaps the most powerful censor, you'll have access to the music produced by a few friends and family, the art of a few generations of your ancestors at best.
Perhaps the freedom to add to the work of your ancestors then? To improve the lot of yourself and others, and their understanding of the world in which they live? No, this paradise is unchanging, and thus by definition cannot be subject to such improvement. Your ideas will be forgotten, with time, particularly since the only method of maintaining them, storage in the minds of those who outlive you, is notoriously fickle.

What freedom, exactly, do you think can be found in the wild? I've felt the apparent freedom of the wild: climbing mountains, living in the fresh air and open spaces. Setting camp where you choose at night. These are illusions of people who don't have to make their lives in that space. Of a world not filled with competitor groups who would literally kill you just for being alive. The freedom of the wild is the freedom to fear for your life if you dare to venture away from your own kingroup alone.

I also feel something meaningful in that threat. I've been lost in a jungle which had recently had reports of a tiger in the area. I've been stalked by a grizzly (my dad had to give it two shots of 'bear spay' before it finally took off). And I am glad that such dangers still exist in the wild. Sure. It's a part of the experience that look for in going to wild places. But I'm not talking about the threat of wild animals. I'm talking about the very high likelihood of being killing by neighboring groups of humans. I think your view of what life in hunter-gatherer societies is like is skewed and not based on the real world.

I mean, yes, if we could make the earth into Pandora, I'd be into it. And not just because those alien chicks were hot. But we live on this planet, and there is no wild utopia to be found here.

 

[TFian]

I see you can't understand simple english and have no manners. The truth is that the elephants destroy them. But of course you blinkered little word is so far out of balace that yu never actually read more than woo trash.

Well my intention wasn't to be rude, I was simply wondering if it ever had an abundance of trees.

 

[TFian]

So you are a misanthrope.

Yes, very much so. I don't deny this.

You don't really care about nature at all, so you just are obsessed.

Obsessed with what? I very much care about nature.