Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kestrel]

Nobody who actually knows Amanda would ever describe her as a "sociopath."

That diagnosis is from the tabloid shrinks. People paid to write articles that pander to tabloid readers and don't use the criteria in DSM-IV^WP. These articles have as much credibility as the UFO abduction stories and Bigfoot encounters found in the same publications.

 

[Kestrel]

I could be wrong but the slander case is not a criminal case but a civil case raised by the Perugian Flying Squad officers against Amanda and her parents; can anyone confirm?

The case against Amanda is a criminal case. The case against Amanda's parents, for repeating what Amanda said about her treatment in a London Times interview, is a separate civil case.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi fellow JREF members,
I had read this on the Perugia Shock forum, and felt it very worthy to bring to the table here for discussion or thought:

"Taped phone recordings. Translated and transcripts, pages and pages of words edited down because the secret recording police knew which words the police look for.

All these recordings made by the police for the police and held by the police.

except the interrogation, that one was not recorded.
they did have all the police show up at 10:30pm for the "show"....only Raffaele and Amanda called in this time.

no recordings were made, even though they brought Edgardo Giobbi from Rome, I guess he doesn't deserve a recording for his work, he probably doesn't need recordings, he can just tell.

its normal they said, not to record the interrogation. just because they called in 12 police, and specialists from Rome and had the interpreter come in, and scheduled it for 10:30pm at night, not the next morning......its ok they didn't bother with transcribing it and recording it.

just by chance they both crumbled, during the non recorded interrogation.

too bad they didn't crumble all the other days, when the recorders and phone taps were working. then they would have proof.

its normal they said not to record interrogations."

Intersting way to look at how things were, don't you agree?
RWVBWL

 

[Kaosium]

Possibly Sollecito's DNA on the clasp. There where dna samples from 5 individuals on it and they where unable to build a complete profile of Sollecito. Matter of fact they barely had enough to get a partial profile.

I've seen that claim before, and it seemed like the person knew what they were talking about, but I've wondered if that was true why the point wasn't pressed harder.

Every guilter says its Sollecito's and every person thats Pro Sollecito believes it resembles Guede's not Sollecito. Good Luck making a guilter believe that footprint belongs to Guede.

I saw that picture too, and I didn't know what to say to the claim it 'matched to the millimeter' without being rude.

I do know that people can see what they want to see sometimes.

Guilters dont believe its even Possible for guede to have committed this crime alone.

This is one I don't recall coming across. What is seen by some as 'impossible' about one attacker?

Though I was just thinking. Why wouldn't Guede give up the persons name who he bought the computer from that was supposedly stolen by someone else. Guilters claim there is no proof he committed that break in. After all, doesn't it make more sense to give up the persons name who committed a robery exactly like the supposed fake break in at the apartment. Unless of course your the one that robbed that office.

That certainly makes sense to me, I find the arguments on both sides of this issue trying to exonerate Rudy kinda creepy personally.

 

[RoseMontague]

I am most decidedly NOT "dismiss[ing]" anyone's opinion.

I think this is a very interesting argument - I wouldn't have wasted my brothers' time with it otherwise.

I'm also very interested by the fact that "Diastole" (apparently a MD) has a very different opinion of Lowe's argument than my 2 doctor-brothers do.

It's all very difficult for me, as a lay person, to sort out. Hence my interest in Lowe's credentials.

If he's just an amateur like myself, well...

Lowe has not claimed to be a doctor and frankly I could care less if he is or isn't. My reading of the Michelli report, the Matteini report, Rudy's appeal Motivation, and the Massei report all indicate plenty of doctors giving their opinion on this issue. Almost all of the doctors and experts agree with a 2-4 hour window from the last meal, what the judges seem confused on is the time of that meal or measurement from the beginning or ending of the meal. The experts have made it clear that it is from the beginning. I have posted these quotes from these reports on several occasions.

You are free to dismiss Lowe's arguments if you want to based on the fact that you believe he is not a doctor. Others other than Lowe have made similar arguments including the defense experts as argued in the appeal and the CT and other doctors as quoted in the court reports and testimony. Personally I get the impression that this has become a personal issue for you and your constant requests for his credentials and personal information is getting tiresome.

 

[Justinian2]

The murder was in Canada, not LA.

The girls were middle class.

Why are you over-looking all of the 'relevant similarities'?

alcohol + weed
petty school girl jealousy
group-bullying turned murder
multiple attackers
young, attractive, white female = ring leader
male accomplice who barely knows the victim
victim of East Indian descent

Here's another link to your 'precident'

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/09/05/bc-kelly-ellard-appeal.html

We all know of gang rapes and instances where a minority is picked on. We know of military massacres and police killings.

However, the victim wasn't killed in the killers home by three people with copious amounts of blood all over the place. Furthermore, the more likely lone wolf scenario was abandoned in the effort to pervert a lone wolf killing into a killing by a group. Furthermore, Amanda did NOT brag about "finishing" off MK and taking people on a guided tour as the villian of your precedent did. Amanda did talk too much.

How does that precedent correlate? I would guess about .25/1.00 - if Amanda is guilty and about 0.00 if Amanda is innocent.

It's a pretty good correlation. I assume you think the correlation is almost 1.00. Your point was to prove that this could happen. I have to admit it is possible. That's why I've always believed that it is only 99.5% likely that Amanda is innocent and not 100% (unless you round to the nearest digit)

I've seen similar precedents to the one you showed. Remember the boys that killed the homosexual?

 

[RWVBWL]

Lowe has not claimed to be a doctor and frankly I could care less if he is or isn't. My reading of the Michelli report, the Matteini report, Rudy's appeal Motivation, and the Massei report all indicate plenty of doctors giving their opinion on this issue. Almost all of the doctors and experts agree with a 2-4 hour window from the last meal, what the judges seem confused on is the time of that meal or measurement from the beginning or ending of the meal. The experts have made it clear that it is from the beginning. I have posted these quotes from these reports on several occasions.

You are free to dismiss Lowe's arguments if you want to based on the fact that you believe he is not a doctor. Others other than Lowe have made similar arguments including the defense experts as argued in the appeal and the CT and other doctors as quoted in the court reports and testimony. Personally I get the impression that this has become a personal issue for you and your constant requests for his credentials and personal information is getting tiresome.

Hi RoseMontague,
As a guy who respects your postings, here and elsewhere, I highly commend you for researching this brutal murder case to the extent that you have read the Michelli report, the Matteini report, Rudy's appeal Motivation, and the Massei report.
Have you also read Rudy Guede's German diary?
For some reason, the computer I am at won't let me read an English version of Rudy's Diary, maybe I need to update this 4 year old machine! Gosh, I'd really luv to read it...

I remember that you had a place on the web where some of the documents that you have worked on and read are available. Would you mind posting that information publicly for newcomers, and me also, to have a read? It would be nice if you do, but it's cool if you don't...
Have a good day,
RWVBWL

 

[christianahannah]

Then why is Amanda's mother perplexed about the first phone call? What is known to have happened before this call was made? What was Edda's advice to her daughter?

I don't have the answer for why Edda was perplexed about the phone call. It could be because Amanda didn't remember the phone call. Perhaps a transcript of the prison conversation may help to better answer that question. I assume the only things not having happened were the phoning of the police and the discovery of Meredith's body. Edda's advice, according to her testimony, was for Amanda to call the police.

After you have answered those questions, answer this: Why is Amanda's mother asking Amanda in a prison visit about a phone call made at Noon "Before anything had happened"?

I think both Edda and Comodi were puzzled about Amanda's forgetting the phone call. The first call to Edda was made before the door was broken down and Meredith's body discovered; subsequent calls to Edda after the door was broken down. Comodi being a prosecutor is going to question Amanda more extensively about this forgotten call.

I have already given my answers. You may wish to review them.

Dan O I would love to review your answers, however, you have quite a few posts under your name and this topic is rather long. Can you give a summary of your answers concerning this subject or point me in the general direction of your posts?

 

[MissWorld]

Animal

Please don't be horrid to bunnies, elephants and straw men. We are all God's creatures and they not us deserve to be maligned in any way.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

May I suggest that the multi-page, multi day profusion of arguments about Prosecutor Comodi's examination of later unanimously convicted murderess Amanda Knox's call to Edda have become a very circular tirade, tiredly redundant and just plain meaningless.

But you thought you would just add to it, eh?

Yes, I would have thought that one could suggest that if one wished to, particularly if it was quickly becoming crystal clear that one's stance on that matter had been easily exposed as deluded, naive and ignorant at best.

Judge Massei negated the thousand word or so effort here to nit pick what the actual time was and motivation for any mistakes about it, when he found it necessary to inject himself into the testimony.

His extremely crystallizing observation about the call being made 'in the middle of the night'; a time when such calls are not ordinarily made seems to me to make more repeated Google cut and pasting of time zones and conjecture about Prosecutor's Comodi's mistake and/or motives to be little more than a pointless exercise in futility.

I had no idea that nearly 5 o'clock in the morning was the middle of the night. Whether that was the actual point being made seems to have eluded some 'contributors' to this thread.

Judge Massei's subsequent final direct statements to Amanda showed just how evasive and deceitful her convenient parsing about 'not remembering' really was.

Amanda's reply surely seems sufficient to be the 'last words' on this matter.
Amanda's answer to the Judge ..."Yes, yes, of course"

Would you welcome the thought that YOUR post seems sufficient to be the 'last words' on this matter?

Yes, yes, of course.

Or, as some people often like to write: 'Sigh'.

 

[RWVBWL]

Ok I re-did the photo and added a 2nd circle.

The middle toe which is longer than the big toe shows a spot where the toe would be at, plus a faint red streak running towards that red spot.

Also the little toe has a red spot that would line up with Guede's little toe.

My question is did they test either of these spots for blood?
When you look at those 2 POSSIBLE blood spots and compare it to the overlaye at of Guede's foot at:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/footprint.html

You will see those red spots line up with the toes. Could be anything, but crimescope did pick them up.

PS There is also a faint red streak on the other toe as well.

Hi Chris C,
Thanks for reposting the photgraph I had asked about!
Now what I would really luv to see and watch would be a debate with Piktor about this bloody footprint,
since Piktor has also, on another website, posted a photographic comparison of the feet of Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito in relation to the bloody footprint.

Come on, Piktor, please do post your photographs here too and then join us for a debate here on JREF to discuss a direct comparison to what both you and Chris C have drawn and posted!

Hope to see this happen soon,
RWVBWL

 

[RoseMontague]

Hi RoseMontague,
As a guy who respects your postings, here and elsewhere, I highly commend you for researching this brutal murder case to the extent that you have read the Michelli report, the Matteini report, Rudy's appeal Motivation, and the Massei report.
Have you also read Rudy Guede's German diary?
For some reason, the computer I am at won't let me read an English version of Rudy's Diary, maybe I need to update this 4 year old machine! Gosh, I'd really luv to read it...

I remember that you had a place on the web where some of the documents that you have worked on and read are available. Would you mind posting that information publicly for newcomers, and me also, to have a read? It would be nice if you do, but it's cool if you don't...
Have a good day,
RWVBWL

I still have a few documents on my docstoc page here:

http://www.docstoc.com/profile/rosemontague

Rudy's German diary was translated by one of the many talented translators at PMF and is listed in the In Their Own Words section. If it does not pull up under the first post (adobe flash) download one of the many attachments available next including a word format and standard pdf.

 

[LondonJohn]

Do you really think it is fair to characterize quantum physics in this manner?

Wave-particle duality as 'easy to comprehend'?!

As I'm sure you are aware, the scientific literature physicists are producing and reading is NOT easily understood by lay people simply because they've been made aware of a famous formula expressing mass-energy equivalence.

Do you really believe that exposure to this formula (in pop culture, in an elementary high school physics class, or in a quick Google search) automatically imbues one's mind with a full/ nuanced appreciation of the nature of light, energy, and mass?!

How many people who've seen this formula would have even the slightest idea about the distinction to be drawn between mass and 'matter'?

How many of them can legitimately evaluate the latest paper in quantum mechanics in relation to the historical context of the search for a unified field theory?

In the same way, the medical matters Lowe is attempting to portray as simple, clear-cut and easily resolved are well beyond the competence of anyone but a medical doctor.

Simplicity is something lay people are quick to see. For the expert, "simplicity" is only a dream.

So I repeat: Is Lowe a doctor???

(I know 2 doctors that are inclined to suspect that he is not.)

I'm getting fed up with straw man responses. I didn't claim that anyone could understand and interpret medical/scientific literature. I said that you didn't necessarily have to be a professional in a specific field to be able to understand or interpret literature from that field. Can you see the difference?

As it happens, I know quite a bit about not only human gastrointestinal function but also quantum physics. Not because I work or studied in either of these areas, but because I have an inquiring mind and a personal interest (coupled with a very relevant medical interest in the case of gastrointestinal function). And it's just plain wrong to state that only those who study or work in areas such as these are capable of understanding them. So stop repeating it.

Oh and, these doctors whom you know: I don't care whether or not they think Kevin_Lowe is a doctor or not - it's irrelevant. I'm more interested to know whether they think it's possible for a moderate meal to still be sitting entirely within the stomach of a healthy adult over 4.5 hours after ingestion. Or, for that matter, whether it's feasible that a pathologist could accidentally manipulate chyme matter along over 4.5 metres of small intestine during an autopsy, without realising it. Ask them to join JREF and post their opinions on these matters. That would actually be of interest. I think I know what the answer would be though.

 

[RoseMontague]

Dr. Waterbury has Part III up and it is the best yet.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2010/10/through-motivation-report-part-iii.html

The Motivation doesn’t actually use the phrase “let’s pretend” when it’s about to reach a wrong conclusion, instead, it uses phrases like “could be” or “may have been.” Look for them as you read. The timing of a witness “could be” within a certain window even though that was an extreme interpretation. The luminol spots “may have been” blood, even though every one of the tests for blood came out negative. Coincidentally, each time phrases like that were used the conclusions reached were bad for Amanda. The rule seems to have been that if something “could be,” no matter how improbable, as long as it supported the guilt of the defendants it had to be positively disproved. If it could not be disproved, it was accepted as ironclad fact and became a building block in the peculiar, sequential logic system used by the Court.

 

[LondonJohn]

Mmmmmmm...

it DID take the police a considerable amount of time (what was it...10 days?) to track down the one person that could confirm Lumumba's alibi

seems AK's educated-guess about Lumumba was right - he really did have trouble finding a witness/ accounting for his whereabouts at the relevant time...

do you recall the details?

it was a professor, I believe...

Oh dear me. Firstly, the Swiss professor (Roman Mero) who was drinking and talking with Lumumba that night was not found by the police. Lumumba had told the police within a day of his arrest that he'd been drinking with a Swiss university professor (whose name he presumably couldn't remember), and that information found its way to the media.

But the police didn't trace Mero. He was told about Lumumba's situation by an Italian friend who'd read about it in the paper. Mero immediately called Perugia police to say that he could verify Lumumba's alibi, but apparently was told to call back the following day. Undeterred, Mero bought himself an airline ticket to get to Perugia, and showed up at the police station to verify Lumumba's presence at his bar during the whole period around the murder.

Mero gave a full statement to the Perugia police and prosecutors totally corroborating Lumumba's alibi on Saturday 10th November - four days after Lumumba's arrest. Yet the authorities did not release Lumumba for over a further week, and they insisted on keeping his business (the bar) shut for months afterwards.

And there were other witnesses in the bar that night who placed Lumumba firmly there. But the university professor was the cast iron unimpeachable witness whom the police could not hope to discredit or impugn.

 

[LondonJohn]

If you didn't become involved with this case until some 6 months after the murder, how is it that you managed to "meet" with AK?

As for the signs of Antisocial PD, are you unaware of the opinions of psychologists that have been published?

Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist?

If not, how is that you are able to 'diagnose' AK?

Would those psychologists' "opinions" be the ones that were purely based on a a second- or third-hand analysis of what Knox allegedly said or did (after passing through the filter of the media)?

Because everything I know about these sorts of personality disorders makes it quite clear that a subject must be interviewed extensively first-hand before a diagnosis can hope to be made....

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't have the answer for why Edda was perplexed about the phone call. It could be because Amanda didn't remember the phone call. Perhaps a transcript of the prison conversation may help to better answer that question. I assume the only things not having happened were the phoning of the police and the discovery of Meredith's body. Edda's advice, according to her testimony, was for Amanda to call the police.

I would suggest that in the larger scheme of things, this is a dead end. The fact that Amanda made the call does not incriminate her, and the fact that she claims not to remember the call does not incriminate her. The series of calls Amanda made between noon and the time the body was found are entirely consistent with someone who was concerned and was trying to figure out what was going on.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I think both Edda and Comodi were puzzled about Amanda's forgetting the phone call. The first call to Edda was made before the door was broken down and Meredith's body discovered; subsequent calls to Edda after the door was broken down. Comodi being a prosecutor is going to question Amanda more extensively about this forgotten call.

Hi, christianahannah

you wrote previously

Comodi's line of questioning is not to establish the exact time of the call - it is to question why Amanda doesn't remember the call, especially in light of phone records and Edda's own testimony that the call was made.

Sorry for asking you again for sources about it, but I just reread the relevant part of the transcript and I cannot see anything like that. Could you quote Comodi asking about "why Amanda doesn't remember the call" or something similar?

You wrote now:
Comodi being a prosecutor is going to question Amanda more extensively about this forgotten call.

Could you quote Comodi questioning extensively about the forgoten call, because I again can't find anything like it in the transcript. To the contrary, Comodi is not at all interested in answers and she drops the line of questioning as soon as she's done with the plan. The plan to push a falsehood about Amanda having a foreknowledge about the crime and calling her mother at 12:00 "when nothing happened yet".
She even sarcastically misquote Edda:

MC: Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened.​

I think the sole purpose of Comodi was to inject the lie that Amanda simulates not remembering because the call was made with the foreknowledge but before the discovery of the suspicious facts.

 

[Justinian2]

The murder was in Canada, not LA.

The girls were middle class.

Why are you over-looking all of the 'relevant similarities'?

alcohol + weed
petty school girl jealousy
group-bullying turned murder
multiple attackers
young, attractive, white female = ring leader
male accomplice who barely knows the victim
victim of East Indian descent

The countries were different.
The nationalities were different.
The place of the killing was different (by a stream)
The mode of killing was different (kicks to the head and drowning)
The number of people was different 8, then 2 versus an alleged 3
The relationship of the killers (and the accused) was different.
What the couples were doing before the murder is different.
The background of all the participants is different
The ages are different
The murderess in your precident bragged that she finished the victim off and led friends on guided tours where the murder happened.
The reason for the killing was different

25 percent correlation.

 

[RoseMontague]

Someone had asked for that summary of the Mignini/Comodi appeal (the one asking for a longer jail term for Amanda) that Catnip posted at PMF. The document I have on my docstoc page is in Italian. Here is the link to Catnip's summary:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org./viewtopic.php?p=55733&sid=c8b49845b4d4f1d75d46aa3b62769af2#p55733