Islamophobes boycott Campbell's Soup

[ddt]

It is antisemitism if you focus your outrage solely on the only Jewish state in the world. Do these people boycott Saudi Arabia? Sudan? Burma? Iran? China? No, their only focus is Israel. Wonder why.

"It is anti-Afrikaanderism if you focus your outrage solely on the only Afrikaander state in the world. Do these people boycott Zaire? The USSR? China? Chile? No, their only focus is South Africa. Wonder why."

My object with the above paraphrase is not to equate Israel with apartheid-South Africa. The only comparison I want to draw is that when in the 1980s people called for boycotting SA, I never, never heard such phrases. Maybe you should think about the reasons why, and why it's a ludicrous argument.

 

[Earthborn]

It is antisemitism if you focus your outrage solely on the only Jewish state in the world.

Your argument would have been stronger if there was another Jewish state in the world with very different policies. If they are boycotting that one too, then it could be anti-Semitic. If they are boycotting only one, it could be that they are boycotting it because they disagree with some of its policies.

Do these people boycott Saudi Arabia? Sudan? Burma? Iran? China? No, their only focus is Israel. Wonder why.

I am successfully boycotting Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Burma and Iran. I am sure lots of other people are too, though those with cars might have trouble boycotting Saudi Arabia. Nobody boycotts China; you wouldn't be able to buy anything any more.

 

[ddt]

Maybe they can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt to a jury. It still could be true.

Isn't there a presumption of innocence in the legal system? It sounds like the prosecution doesn't really have a case, but they still want to stick it to them. In the same vein, you may remember the Dutch cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot who was arrested a year ago and his computer(s) taken in by the DA on suspicion of hate crimes. Recently, the DA issued a press release that they still think he's guilty but they're not going to trial. I think that is unethical behaviour.

They never charged Capone with most of his crimes. But he was guilty of far more than tax evasion, and everyone knew it.

Something you and I may say, but not the prosecutor.

If one is in the mood to draw such fine distinctions, one should note that there's no evidence that Geller is afraid of Islam. Quite the contrary: she seems quite willing to challenge it openly and directly. One could claim she's bigoted against Islam, but afraid of it? Nope, not in evidence.

I largely agree. If we start with the dictionary definition, Islamophobia is "irrational fear of Islam and/or Muslims". I think we can agree that what Geller does is to (try to) induce Islamophobia in her readers. And I'd go above the claim that she's bigoted, I'd say she's an Islam-hater. There's indeed no hard and fast evidence that she's afraid of Islam herself - but reading a couple of her pieces leaves me wondering how you can write the crap without actually believing it yourself.

If you want to find people who are afraid of Islam, look to people who actually back down in the face of threats (or even anticipation of threats) from the religion of peace.

Yes - though I'm hard-pressed to find recent examples. Skeptic mentions the NYT and the WP, which I think may refer to the Danish cartoon affair. But I think you'll find many, many more people afraid of Islam among the readership of Geller et.al. and the listeners to anti-Islam talkradio than among "opinion makers". And those readers and listeners never had any intention of doing themselves something that would remotely have a chance of inciting threats.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Your argument would have been stronger if there was another Jewish state in the world with very different policies. If they are boycotting that one too, then it could be anti-Semitic. If they are boycotting only one, it could be that they are boycotting it because they disagree with some of its policies.

I am successfully boycotting Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Burma and Iran. I am sure lots of other people are too, though those with cars might have trouble boycotting Saudi Arabia. Nobody boycotts China; you wouldn't be able to buy anything any more.

I tried boycotting China by living in an overturned bathtub outside the city walls.
Then I found out that the bathtub was made in China.

 

[Puppycow]

I think the term "Islamophobe" is misused. The people who are boycotting Cambell's soup for having halal food are not Islamophobes. They are simply bigots.

They hate Muslims for their silly clothes and strange ways and bizzare religion, so they find a phoney-baloney excuse of "national security", much like some people hate Jews and find the excuse of "dual loyalty" or whatever.

The Islamophobes are the likes of the Washington Post, the New York Times, and other folks who dare not run certain cartoons or photos because they are afraid Muslims will kill them.

Good point. Why certain kinds of bigotry got labeled "phobias" and those labels happened to stick is an odd linguistic coincidence. However, at some point the etymology of a word becomes just an academic matter. Some people try to argue about the meaning of the word anti-Semitism too.

 

[EvilSmurf]

I think the term "Islamophobe" is misused. The people who are boycotting Cambell's soup for having halal food are not Islamophobes. They are simply bigots.

They hate Muslims for their silly clothes and strange ways and bizzare religion, so they find a phoney-baloney excuse of "national security", much like some people hate Jews and find the excuse of "dual loyalty" or whatever.

The Islamophobes are the likes of the Washington Post, the New York Times, and other folks who dare not run certain cartoons or photos because they are afraid Muslims will kill them.

I don't know...those who are opposed to "Radical Islams Imminent Takeover of The Entire World" strike me as scared of Islam, rather than just bigotry. Much like people who are afraid "Gay teachers will force students to be gay" strike me as genuinely homophobic

 

[TragicMonkey]

What's the Greek word for "soup", so we may correctly coin another word ending in "-phobic"?

 

[Thunder]

"Halaal food in North America means the Islamization of the West!!!!!!"

 

[Puppycow]

I don't know...those who are opposed to "Radical Islams Imminent Takeover of The Entire World" strike me as scared of Islam, rather than just bigotry. Much like people who are afraid "Gay teachers will force students to be gay" strike me as genuinely homophobic

But why isn't bigotry against blacks or Jews also a "phobia"?

 

[Eddie Dane]

"Halaal food in North America means the Islamization of the West!!!!!!"

Since that Turkish supermarket opened around the corner from me, my family has been getting Islamized with almost every meal.

 

[ddt]

Since that Turkish supermarket opened around the corner from me, my family has been getting Islamized with almost every meal.

Be afraid! They're going after your precious body fluids!

 

[A'isha]

But why isn't bigotry against blacks or Jews also a "phobia"?

Because the terms for bigotry against blacks and Jews were developed earlier than the terms for bigotry against gays and Muslims, and so developed differently.

In other words, it's the same reason that recent political scandals are invariably given the "-gate" suffix, while earlier political scandals like the Tea Pot Dome were not.

 

[Thunder]

But why isn't bigotry against blacks or Jews also a "phobia"?

Judeophobia

 

[DC]

Since that Turkish supermarket opened around the corner from me, my family has been getting Islamized with almost every meal.

Don't buy from Muslims!

 

[EvilSmurf]

But why isn't bigotry against blacks or Jews also a "phobia"?

It can be. I'm just pointing out that there are legitimate examples where hatred of Islam or Homosexuals can properly be translated as a phobia.

 

[MikeMangum]

"It is anti-Afrikaanderism if you focus your outrage solely on the only Afrikaander state in the world. Do these people boycott Zaire? The USSR? China? Chile? No, their only focus is South Africa. Wonder why."

My object with the above paraphrase is not to equate Israel with apartheid-South Africa. The only comparison I want to draw is that when in the 1980s people called for boycotting SA, I never, never heard such phrases. Maybe you should think about the reasons why, and why it's a ludicrous argument.

It would indeed be a ludicrous argument if the analogy was even close. If South Africa was almost exclusively connoted with a specific ethnicity and controlled by that ethnicity, had (instead of full Apartheid) a policy of outlawing miscegenation, and otherwise was a pretty decent liberal democracy while it's surounding neighbors all had legal chattel slavery...and yet some people singled out South Africa for condemnation and only offered the occasional and pro forma condemnation of those neighbors...then then the analgoy would be closer to cogent.

Or are you really going to claim that Israel's abridgements of basic rights are substantially greater than all of its neighbors combined and that there are not many people (on this board included) who are not significantly quicker to condemn Israel than any other country (with the possible exception of the US)? That the condemnations of Israel that monopolize the UN and various NGOs is simply because Israel commits more violations of basic human rights than the rest of the world combined?

Get real.

ETA: are you going to castigate the UK for 'occupying' Northern Ireland? Strangely enough, I don't hear many condemnations of Spain for 'occupying' Melilla, nor calls for a Moroccan 'right of return'. Maybe I just read and watch the wrong news, but Morocco's blockade of Melilla didn't seem to make the same sort of international news even though food shipments were prevented from reaching the city. I wonder why that is? I've never once seen anyone condemn India for doing far worse in dealing with the problem of Kashmir than Israel has done dealing with the Palestinians. I wonder why that is? I know that for some people, it is because they are so incredibly concerned about the plight of the Palestinian people and that's all they have to energy to deal with...which doesn't explain why those same people didn't/don't condemn Kuwait for its treatment of Palestinians after the first Gulf war. I wonder why that is?

 

[MikeMangum]

And on the actual topic of the thread...

I'm not interested in a boycott of Campbell's soup, but finding this call for a boycott to be 'Islamophobia' seems to be a stretch.

BTW, can someone find me the definition of Islamophobia from the DSM? I'm going to guess that there is no mental disorder named Islamophobia and the idea is to use a term that implies a mental illness in people who disagree with those who use the term.

If someone called for a boycott of Campbell's soup twenty years ago because one of their (Catholic owned and run) suppliers was allegedly associated with the IRA, with strong indications from national law enforcement authorities along those lines, would that be evidence of 'Catholicophobia'? That would be very much analogous to this situation, and just like the present case, would not be a general call to boycott members of the religion simply for being members of the religion but would be a call to boycott specific organizations that (allegedly) engage in specific actions.

 

[ddt]

It would indeed be a ludicrous argument if the analogy was even close. If South Africa was almost exclusively connoted with a specific ethnicity and controlled by that ethnicity, had (instead of full Apartheid) a policy of outlawing miscegenation, and otherwise was a pretty decent liberal democracy while it's surounding neighbors all had legal chattel slavery...and yet some people singled out South Africa for condemnation and only offered the occasional and pro forma condemnation of those neighbors...then then the analgoy would be closer to cogent.

"Almost exclusively"? You do know that 20+% of the population of Israel is Arab, don't you? But in the end, I brought up the argument because Pardalis claimed that boycotting Israel meant you had to hate Jews living in Amsterdam and NYC and wherever too: he called it antisemitism. Then let me put it stronger: labeling a boycott of israel as antisemitic is like labeling a boycott of South Africa as "hating the Dutch".

ETA: are you going to castigate the UK for 'occupying' Northern Ireland? Strangely enough, I don't hear many condemnations of Spain for 'occupying' Melilla, nor calls for a Moroccan 'right of return'. Maybe I just read and watch the wrong news, but Morocco's blockade of Melilla didn't seem to make the same sort of international news even though food shipments were prevented from reaching the city. I wonder why that is? I've never once seen anyone condemn India for doing far worse in dealing with the problem of Kashmir than Israel has done dealing with the Palestinians. I wonder why that is? I know that for some people, it is because they are so incredibly concerned about the plight of the Palestinian people and that's all they have to energy to deal with...which doesn't explain why those same people didn't/don't condemn Kuwait for its treatment of Palestinians after the first Gulf war. I wonder why that is?

I see. So you're not really interested in that blockade of Melila other than to use it as an argument to sidestep discussion on Israel. Great. It's the same old tired tactic.