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18,000 Finnish Lutherans Leave Churches in protest over anti gay stance

Olowkow

Philosopher
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
8,230
The Finnish Evangelical-Lutheran Church has seen an unprecedented exodus of members sparked by a televized debate program, which dealt with issues such as the right of homosexuals to adopt children and the establishment of gender-neutral marriage.
Archbishop Kari Mäkinen issued a statement on Friday saying that he did not understand why people are leaving the church because of issues related to homosexuality.
“I understand that many are expecting that the church would more clearly show that it accepts homosexuality,” Mäkinen said.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n....over-broadcasted-anti-gay-comments-2010-10-18

I can't find much more on this just yet. Anyone in Finland that can fill in the blanks?

These were the two persons involved apparently:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Up...n+gay+current+affairs+programme/1135260979317

I can't seem to find who was on the other side of the "debate".
 
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“Now would be precisely the time to hold debate on homosexuality, respecting others and listening to them,” Mäkinen said.

Isn't that always the way for religions. Wait until the pocket book is impacted before you decide to "talk" about something that common decency says should have been done long ago.
 
The pocketbook is the Achilles heel of any religion. My second link no longer works, as it is being deluged I guess by JREF:D members. But it stated that the church stands to lose in excess of 2 million euros annually in tax revenues...I didn't quite follow that statement.

OK, it's working again:
It is estimated that Lutheran Parishes are set to lose annual church tax revenues worth about EUR 2 million from the exodus.
 
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Many European countries don't really have a separation of church and state. I think that the Lutheran Church is the "official" religion on Finland. The church gets a certain percentage of its income from the tax payer. The tax payer can opt out, but I guess most don't. Now, if 18,000 opt out all at once in a small country like Finland, that will hurt.

At least I think that's how it works.

Ward
 
It is estimated that Lutheran Parishes are set to lose annual church tax revenues worth about EUR 2 million from the exodus
iirc the Egyptians lost a bit more
:D
 
It was a talkshow with some ten people from different backgrounds, including a priest, a Bible teacher, gay activists, several politicians and a comic strip artist known for his skeptical views a Christian Democrat (a minor, but influential political party) parliamentary (equivalent of a congresswoman) and a few others.

Several of the Christian people made very inflammatory statements throughout, for example noting that "Male-female marriage is extremely important to society, but gay marriage does not matter to it" and the usual "the Bible says homosexuality is a sin". As I understand, what pissed people off the most were statements by the Christian Democrat parliamentary in question, some of which I'm attempting to translate below:

Päivi Räsänen said:
Well, I believe that in this matter, if anywhere, the Biblical view is extremely clear. I can't understand how one can even try to interpret it differently, since marriage is so clearly set as something between a man and a woman, and homosexuality is so clearly - also in the New Testament - seen as going against God's will, as sin. I personally think that it is also right and honest towards homosexuals, that they get to hear the Bible's true message, the Gospel, from the Church. That is, the Law of God - which applies to all of us - as it pertains to sexual life, it's there so we would understand we are sinful, that we need mercy.

(Pardon the messiness; spoken Finnish is like that. Also note that this is not a verbatim translation, although I believe it's close enough. The original talkshow is available here, though it is of course in Finnish, and can only be viewed from Finland.)

Later on, in another talk show, Räsänen suggested that should the Church start blessing gay marriages, more conservative members might leave the Church en masse.

Both instances demonstrate pretty well the attitude several of the Christians on the show displayed throughout the discussion, that so often is displayed wherever the subject comes up. It's nothing strange; it's the same bigotry and clinging onto literal interpretation of the Bible we all know so well. But at the moment it's a very hot topic in Finland.

For some years now, it's been legal for same-sex couples to form a legal union - which is legally almost identical to being married, but is not called "marriage". There still is a separate Law on Marriage which clearly states that only male-female couples can marry.

The problem is, most Finnish homosexuals are more or less devout Lutherans, and strongly wish to receive the blessing of the Church for their union. Even of the less devout ones, a large number considers the right to marry something important, and are hurt by the fact that this right does not extend to all sexual orientations. It is likely that the aforementioned law will change within the next decade, perhaps even sooner, although the public, as well as the politicians, are still heavily divided on the issue.

Another, related issue concerns the rights of homosexual couples to adopt children. Here, too, the legislation allows male-female couples rights that are denied to same-sex couples. There have also been attempts to change this law, but in this, the prospects seem slightly worse.

Now, to the Church's place in all this. The Lutheran Church, though quickly losing members, is still very influential in Finland. In recent years, it has generally become more and more liberal in it's policies, most famously by allowing female priesthood some years back. Many priests, and even Bishops, have also publicly declared that their interpretation of the Bible does not make homosexual love a sin, and many have even begun giving blessings to homosexual unions.

But of course then there are the conservatives. While the power balance has been steadily shifting to the liberal wing, this has only served to fuel the fervor of the more conservative members. Some parts have moved so far from the main Church's stance they can hardly be considered a part of it at all, and there's plenty of room for bigotry in between the extremes.

So currently we have a Church internally divided. On one hand, we have extremely liberal views - for example, a vicar recently underwent a sex change operation - and on the other, the conservatives, such as priests who refuse to work with female priests and consider homosexuality a sin. For the moment, the liberals hold more power - most likely because smart Christians have long since realized that clinging to the old prejudices will certainly spell the doom of the Church's special position in the country.

Still, the conservatives are far from powerless. A large number of Finns are still devoutly Christian and hold very conservative views, which is why there are many extremely conservative Christians serving in the Finnish parliament. Päivi Räsänen, of course, is one of them - from the stricter end.

As said, the Church is internally divided, but this is not readily obvious to the average viewer. When Räsänen - and a few others - appeared on the talk show, unabashedly dishing out their bigoted views, the viewers believed they were hearing the true opinions of the Church. In a way they were; it took the Archbishop five days to issue a statement that Räsänen's views do not represent those of the Church, and frankly, it wasn't all that convincing.

So a lot of people are leaving the Church again. The last I checked, 25,000 had left the Church after the talk show. In a country of 5 million people, it's a large number, and although the number of people leaving the Church has steadily risen since it became possible to do so online, only about 40,000 people left during the whole year 2009. So yeah, it's big.

The conclusion? Times are changing, and the Church is having trouble keeping up. Many would like to keep the Lutheran Church as a part of the Finnish culture, even if it means adapting. Many believe to do so would be to betray the Bible. The former have put up a good fight, but in the end, it's starting to look like it wasn't enough.


Babelfished, inexhaustive sources:

The "Gay Night" talkshow on national television brought a new record in the amount of people leaving the Church

Already over 25,000 left the Church since homosexual discussion

Division concerning Räsänen's statements also within the Christian Democrat party


The vicar returning as a woman filled the Church in Imatra

Vicar Marja-Sisko Aalto leaves her post


Ordainment of a female Bishop led to an increase in hate mail to female priests
 
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Many European countries don't really have a separation of church and state. I think that the Lutheran Church is the "official" religion on Finland. The church gets a certain percentage of its income from the tax payer. The tax payer can opt out, but I guess most don't. Now, if 18,000 opt out all at once in a small country like Finland, that will hurt.

At least I think that's how it works.


Ward
Almost. The Eastern Orthodox, maybe 5%, is an equally officialchurch. You can send your taxes there too. Pentecostals et al are not state supported, they collect their own.
 
Big thanks to everyone, lots to absorb here. If we could just get a tidal wave like this going in the U.S.
 
Almost. The Eastern Orthodox, maybe 5%, is an equally officialchurch. You can send your taxes there too. Pentecostals et al are not state supported, they collect their own.

Are Finnish citizens required to pay to support the church or am I correct that they can officially cut ties with the church and not pay?

Thanks,
Ward
 
What I don't understand is the attachment to the Lutheran church. Traditional Finnish mythology is far more interesting, and the gods didn't seem to care about anyone's sex life but their own.
 
Are Finnish citizens required to pay to support the church or am I correct that they can officially cut ties with the church and not pay?

Thanks,
Ward

Only Finns who are members of the Church pay, and it's very easy to leave by just filling a form on a website.

But it's not quite that simple. First of all, while it is voluntary, what you pay to the Church is a tax - a set percentage of your income, handled by the same tax officials that handle normal taxes. It's a strange relic of a time when the Church and state were not divided, and of course the Church relies very heavily on the tax.

Secondly, being a member of the Church gives you certain benefits. Getting married in a Church, being a godfather, going through confirmation at 15 (something that is still considered a very important growing-up rite, even by many non-religious people) all require being a member. And most importantly, the Church owns most graveyards in the country, and the kin of non-members have to pay much more for a spot than those of a member.

For the record, I myself still belong to the Church, for the abovementioned reasons. For the moment, my income is so small that I consider paying the tax a reasonable investment. That is likely to change in a few years as my income rises, of course.
 
Is being a church member and paying the tax the "default" setting, or must you actively choose to become a member?

Ward
 
Is being a church member and paying the tax the "default" setting, or must you actively choose to become a member?

Ward

It's up to the parents, so no, it's not exactly a default position, although the majority of parents still do join their children to the Church.

And as pointed out above, the Orthodox Church holds a similar position, although no other religious groups do.
 

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