Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Scorpion NITE]

I think the point that Comodi was trying to make had to do with the forgetfulness of Amanda (as did Massei when also questioning Amanda on the call).

Whether this is a big point or not (forgetfulness) I guess is up to the individual to evaluate. I personally don't think it is, however, I don't have all the information that the court did in reference to the recorded prison conversations or prior questionings of Amanda.

Hi christianahannah,

I think the point I and others are trying to make is about the connotations Comodi was trying to develop/associate with what you refer to as Amanda's 'forgetfulness'. It seems to be me that it is a deliberate ploy to suggest to the court that Amanda was not actually being 'forgetful' but that she was being 'evasive'. Thus the judges/jury then have another seed of doubt planted - leading to more suspicion towards Amanda.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi there Fuji,

How do you know there were photos of the pair together on the computer?

From what I have read, after meeting and living together, Amanda and Meredith had "continued to explore bookstores, run errands, go out for dinner, and hang out together in the center. When the popular, weeklong Eurochocolate Festival bagan in late October, they attended it together, exploring the white tents pitched on the Corso, where venders offered everything from chocolate popcorn to Perugina chocolates. Afterward, Amanda told her parents that she'd had a great time, and described her British roommate as fun, beautiful, and smart."
ref: "Murder in Italy" C. Dempsey, page 11+12

From what I have read elsewhere, there were photographs of Amanda and Meredith on Amanda Knox's laptop, you know, the 1 that the police fried...

Evidently, this hypothesized "help" was not a requisite for attaining their convictions.

Well, good thing I wasn't on that jury, for I would have voted them NOT GUILTY!

Again, you have no way of knowing this. NO ONE (other than the convicted) has any way of knowing this.

It's too bad that Mignini's investigators did not, or maybe could not, find any drops of Meredith Kercher's blood at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment or on his clothing. Nor on any of Amanda Knox's clothing nor in her bedroom, right next to the murder scene. Think about it for a moment. Not even a few drops of Miss Kercher's blood, after she was brutally stabbed to death, could be found on the 2 nor their possesions...

That evidence Fuji, might have helped me to believe, as you seem to do, that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were involved in Miss Meredith Kercher's bloody, brutal murder.
But there wasn't any of Miss Kercher's blood found there, so...
RWVBWL

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thank you for these documents.

I have posted at PMF new diagrams.

I think exact measurements are not needed because the approximate shapes are markedly different from Sollecito's to Guede's.

If the bathmat photo is faithful, and the defendant's footprint samples are equally proportional to it, a few millimeters do not affect the resulting comparative samples I have posted. The general shape and sweep of the outlines tell the story.

What I do know is Sollecito's width measurements coincide exactly with the bathmat measurements.

Guede's big toe does not match the bathmat markings at all but his footprint axis points are generally coincidental with the bathmat axis markings, even as I moved the outline to the left. Until I posted the new image I realized I moved it a bit more to the left than I should have but an eye adjustment can correct this without needing to re-do the image.

I don't see how you can think the big toe looks more like Raffaele's than Rudy's.

I think you need to move the Rudy overlay a little to the right.

My conclusion is that the print on the mat was made with less than full body weight. The killer was using the bidet as a fountain for washing up. He put his wet, bloody right foot down briefly to steady his balance, with most of his body weight centered on his other foot. Thus the bathmat print is smaller and narrower than the reference prints. An adjustment is needed for either Raffaele or Rudy, as you will notice. But the line of the arch follows Rudy's reference print, whereas Raffaele's veers off at a different angle.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

BTW, here is the crimescope photo of the bathmat print with the scale in the view.

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bathmat_print_under_crimescope.jpg

 

[christianahannah]

Hi christianahannah,

I think the point I and others are trying to make is about the connotations Comodi was trying to develop/associate with what you refer to as Amanda's 'forgetfulness'. It seems to be me that it is a deliberate ploy to suggest to the court that Amanda was not actually being 'forgetful' but that she was being 'evasive'. Thus the judges/jury then have another seed of doubt planted - leading to more suspicion towards Amanda.

Whether the point being made was one of Amanda being "forgetful" or "evasive" I don't think it would have made the judges more suspicious of Amanda on that one point.

The court had to evaluate all the evidence and as far as I know, there was nothing to contradict the testimony of Edda concerning the conversation of the 12:47 phone call and I don't think Amanda has referred to it in the documents that are public.

The only thing I find curious is that no one appeared to get the time correct, with the exception of the motivations.

 

[RoseMontague]

Color me disappointed.

I'm running down peer-reviewed journals (from as far away as INDIA), and trying to resolve the paradox that is Kevin_Lowe's 'stance' on premises advanced without the support of such journals, and he's suddenly nowhere to be seen.

I'm starting to get the sense that he's a lot less likely to be a MD than a psych major currently in the midst of cramming for his midterm exams...

Or have I missed something? Did Lowe reveal whether he is a doctor/ gastroenterologist/ forensic pathologist?

I could care less what his profession is. I judge his posts based on the content of his posts.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I thought it was the green towel underneath Meredith which yielded no results.

That's correct. They got Meredith's DNA profile from the bathmat.

BTW, I got an answer on the clothes taken in March '08 from Amanda's room. It seems they did a number of TMB tests for blood, and all were negative, so they did not conduct any further tests.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Whether the point being made was one of Amanda being "forgetful" or "evasive" I don't think it would have made the judges more suspicious of Amanda on that one point.

The court had to evaluate all the evidence and as far as I know, there was nothing to contradict the testimony of Edda concerning the conversation of the 12:47 phone call and I don't think Amanda has referred to it in the documents that are public.

The only thing I find curious is that no one appeared to get the time correct, with the exception of the motivations.

You are fully entitled to your opinion which I respect but disagree with. I think the intention IS to create more suspicion - as part of the overall prosecution strategy which is why I wrote:

...the connotations Comodi was trying to develop/associate
...have another seed of doubt planted - leading to more suspicion towards Amanda.

 

[christianahannah]

Hi there Fuji,

From what I have read, after meeting and living together, Amanda and Meredith had "continued to explore bookstores, run errands, go out for dinner, and hang out together in the center. When the popular, weeklong Eurochocolate Festival bagan in late October, they attended it together, exploring the white tents pitched on the Corso, where venders offered everything from chocolate popcorn to Perugina chocolates. Afterward, Amanda told her parents that she'd had a great time, and described her British roommate as fun, beautiful, and smart."
ref: "Murder in Italy" C. Dempsey, page 11+12

From what I have read elsewhere, there were photographs of Amanda and Meredith on Amanda Knox's laptop, you know, the 1 that the police fried...


Well, good thing I wasn't on that jury, for I would have voted them NOT GUILTY!


It's too bad that Mignini's investigators did not, or maybe could not, find any drops of Meredith Kercher's blood at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment or on his clothing. Nor on any of Amanda Knox's clothing nor in her bedroom, right next to the murder scene. Think about it for a moment. Not even a few drops of Miss Kercher's blood, after she was brutally stabbed to death, could be found on the 2 nor their possesions...

That evidence Fuji, might have helped me to believe, as you seem to do, that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were involved in Miss Meredith Kercher's bloody, brutal murder.
But there wasn't any of Miss Kercher's blood found there, so...
RWVBWL

Do you know if there was any of Meredith's blood found at Rudy's flat? Obviously, there was enough evidence of him at the cottage where Meredith was murdered.

There were inspections and samples taken from Rudy's flat but I don't know what those results were. Perhaps Charlie Wilkes would know if there was any blood found at Rudy's.

 

[christianahannah]

That's correct. They got Meredith's DNA profile from the bathmat.

BTW, I got an answer on the clothes taken in March '08 from Amanda's room. It seems they did a number of TMB tests for blood, and all were negative, so they did not conduct any further tests.

Thank you Charlie. Do you know if the clothing on the bed was pictured on television or print media or described in detail by either medium?

I have another question about the clothing I will ask later. I have to find the documentation for it.

 

[Kestrel]

Hmmm! Kestrel. All rather fanciful and not at all believable.

Poor girl was so exhausted that instead of going to bed, she went to the police station with her latest squeeze. You know the guy, she'd met him the previous week. She then entertained the assembled crowd with some gymnastics.

Amanda pointed out herself that she was afraid to be alone. That is almost certainly why she went along with Raffaele to the police station.

The rest of your post makes it clear that you simply are incapable of believing the police can be abusive.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thank you Charlie. Do you know if the clothing on the bed was pictured on television or print media or described in detail by either medium?

I have another question about the clothing I will ask later. I have to find the documentation for it.

I don't know.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Originally Posted by colonelhall
Hmmm! Kestrel. All rather fanciful and not at all believable.

Poor girl was so exhausted that instead of going to bed, she went to the police station with her latest squeeze. You know the guy, she'd met him the previous week. She then entertained the assembled crowd with some gymnastics.

Amanda pointed out herself that she was afraid to be alone. That is almost certainly why she went along with Raffaele to the police station. The rest of your post makes it clear that you simply are incapable of believing the police can be abusive.

Lol...I was sorely tempted to retort that the post by our friend from Kentucky (I think?) was all rather fanciful and not at all believ.....oh never mind!

 

[Kestrel]

That's correct. They got Meredith's DNA profile from the bathmat.

BTW, I got an answer on the clothes taken in March '08 from Amanda's room. It seems they did a number of TMB tests for blood, and all were negative, so they did not conduct any further tests.

Given this, the prosecution theory that Amanda killed Meredith requires her to change clothes, kill Meredith, fake a burglary including individual placement of dozens of pieces of glass, perform a magical cleanup of her trace DNA in the murder room, clean herself, change back into the clothes she was wearing the night before, dispose of the second knife, take Meredith's cell phones to a garden several hundred meters away, dispose of Meredith's keys, credit cards and money, dispose of the clothes and shoe she wore during the murder, return the kitchen knife to Raff's place, go back to the cottage to take a shower and change again, carry the mop back to Raff's place, come back to the cottage, make a bunch of phone calls and wait for the cops to show up.

It's quite a list. Especially when you consider that a couple of the tasks are basically impossible.

 

[piktor]

I don't see how you can think the big toe looks more like Raffaele's than Rudy's.

I think you need to move the Rudy overlay a little to the right.

My conclusion is that the print on the mat was made with less than full body weight. The killer was using the bidet as a fountain for washing up. He put his wet, bloody right foot down briefly to steady his balance, with most of his body weight centered on his other foot. Thus the bathmat print is smaller and narrower than the reference prints. An adjustment is needed for either Raffaele or Rudy, as you will notice. But the line of the arch follows Rudy's reference print, whereas Raffaele's veers off at a different angle.

halides1 asked to move the Guede outline to the left and I moved it a little too much. I will move it to the right.

I have no theory as to why the print exists. My concern is the shape from the footprint samples as it relates to the bathmat markers.

As I said before, each one should make their own conclusions.

To me, Guede is discarded, the big toe does not fit at all. Sollecito is toast.

 

[Kestrel]

I should point out that Rudy as a lone wolf has some real advantages. Rudy does a quick cleanup in the cottage bathroom, leaving behind some of Meredith's blood and his own footprint on a mat. He leaves the cottage and walks home, taking a route outside the city walls to avoid being seen. On the way he tosses Meredith's cell phones over a wall where they land in a garden. When he gets home, he cleans up leaving blood traces in his apartment. Rudy is not being watched by the police, so he doesn't have to discard his bloodstained clothes, shoes, and other incriminating items immediately. Meredith's money is spent on a ticket out of town. His bloodstained clothing is discarded in Germany. Meredith's keys, credit cards, sweatshirt and the knife used in the murder were likely discarded at the same time. There is no need for Rudy to fake a burglary and no need for him to clean up trace DNA.

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't know if any of you have been following the Sarah Scazzi case but it seems that many comparisons will be made to the Meredith Kercher case now that her 22 year old cousin has been arrested in connection with the murder.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=3.1.1121565721

 

[katy_did]

To me, Guede is discarded, the big toe does not fit at all. Sollecito is toast.

Is that based on your belief that the width measurement of the big toe on the bathmat is identical to Sollecito's print?

I pointed out in an earlier post that when Rinaldi took that measurement he deliberately measured to an area not marked with blood, because he was assuming that the little mark to the right of the big toe was in fact a part of the toe (the defence expert believed it was the mark of Rudy's second toe). On your diagram that mark is outside the outline of the big toe, meaning it must be the second toe (or at any rate, not part of the big toe): in that case, you would need to measure only up to the point where there's actually blood on the mat, meaning the width measurement is about 24mm, in comparison to Guede's 23mm (and Sollecito's 30mm).

Since as you said yourself, Guede's big toe matches that on the bathmat in terms of height, wouldn't that make it almost a perfect fit?

ETA: This is what I'm talking about:

Rinaldi extended the measurement of the width of the big toe way out to the right to an area not stained with blood (as Massei acknowledges in the report), to accommodate the detached mark at the top-right which he said was actually a part of the big toe. Since Piktor's diagram has that mark outside the big toe, s/he has to also adjust the width measurement to about 24mm, which is the actual width of it (not Rinaldi's estimate of how wide it might be if that mark were a part of it).

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't see how you can think the big toe looks more like Raffaele's than Rudy's.

I think you need to move the Rudy overlay a little to the right.

My conclusion is that the print on the mat was made with less than full body weight. The killer was using the bidet as a fountain for washing up. He put his wet, bloody right foot down briefly to steady his balance, with most of his body weight centered on his other foot. Thus the bathmat print is smaller and narrower than the reference prints. An adjustment is needed for either Raffaele or Rudy, as you will notice. But the line of the arch follows Rudy's reference print, whereas Raffaele's veers off at a different angle.

I'd agree, and I think this is just one of many, many reasons why I think it's ridiculous to start talking about "millimetre precision" in regard to analysing this print. I'd say that it's impossible to say much more about it other than it was most likely made by the right foot of an adult male with a reasonably large foot size. But if pushed to say whether it more closely resembled Guede's or Sollecito's reference print, I'd say that on balance it was closer to Guede's.

 

[RoseMontague]

halides1 asked to move the Guede outline to the left and I moved it a little too much. I will move it to the right.

I have no theory as to why the print exists. My concern is the shape from the footprint samples as it relates to the bathmat markers.

As I said before, each one should make their own conclusions.

To me, Guede is discarded, the big toe does not fit at all. Sollecito is toast.

I have a question about the measurements in the pictures you posted "This is Guede's Exclusively". In the up and down arrows in the first picture the left arrow going down seems to end at about the point that the arrow to the right of it seems to end going upward, but in the second picture the arrow to the right of the first arrow seems to rise much higher above the end of the arrow to its left. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective but I am not sure you would be measuring the same things if this were the case. Maybe I am just missing the significance of all these arrows?
↑ ↓

ETA. I see your post I believe saying the measurement in the second picture should be 55 rather than 67 and that seems to make more sense. The two prints seem very similar to me. It appears to be somewhat of a guess where the start and end of these arrows go however.