CME's, active regions and high energy flares

FYI: My guess is as good or even better 'guess' than your previous guess with numbers just pulled from your imagination unless you have an anwsser to What is your methodogy that gives you the numbers that you quote? First asked 12 October 2010 - 6 days and counting :eye-poppi!

FYI, it depends on the type of flare/CME we're discussing. Dark filament eruptions typically take about 2 hours to reach LASCO C2's view. The filament doesn't 'erupt" until it hits the top of the visible corona in the iron line images (say 193A). Once it was clear that the dark filament was moving upward at an increasing rate, there would be at least a two hour delay between eruption and visual confirmation, and it typically takes a few hours for the filament to erupt. That's why I "hedged" a bit and picked a three hour window.

In the case of EM flares, the timeline of when it will blow is related to the build up process, and outside timeline 48 hours was more related to how long I thought things would take to 'cool down' once the realignment began. So far we've seen 1 M class and 3 (maybe 4 since one is in progress right now) C class flares and a host of smaller flares too. That area remains pretty active too and could continue to produce flares for awhile.
 
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My intent is to do just that over the next several months and years in this thread. I intend to "predict" the CME events that we will see in LASCO/COR based images upon the upward movements of those dark filaments. There is a direct cause/effect link between these dark ribbons and CME's.


So you continue to claim, yet you refuse to demonstrate that it is so.

You however are still not "communicating", you're "arguing" for argument sake.


No. I am asking you to demonstrate that your claim is true, and you are refusing to do that. Your dishonesty in misrepresenting what it is I'm doing here is noted.

I'm attempting to look for areas of agreement. Your answers are vague but they suggest that you disagree that dark filaments are related to CME's. Is that true?


The dark filaments being related to CMEs is quite a different issue than them causing CMEs. Your claim is that they are the trigger, that they cause the CMEs. And again I'll remind you that after being asked many times to support that claim, you have been wholly unable to do that.

FYI, you could in fact "predict" that a (male) dog is going to pee before the pee emerges based upon them lifting their leg and you'd likely be correct most of the time.


Big deal. So what? Your claim is that the dark filaments cause the CMEs. So prove it already.

My interest is in isolating specific observations that can lead us to "predict" a CME before it occurs. That dog lifting his leg would be of great interest to me if I were trying to figure out when the dog was going to pee. You don't seem even interested in exploring or discussing any observations that might be useful in predicting CME's. All you seem to be interested in is "arguing".


You are again misrepresenting what it is I'm doing here. That is a dishonest argument, not even remotely scientific. You made a clear and unambiguous claim, and I want you to demonstrate that it is indeed true. Please stop blaming me for your lack of willingness and/or ability to do that.

So, whenever you're ready...
 
So you continue to claim, yet you refuse to demonstrate that it is so.

I have already demonstrated it is so once, and I will do so many more times over the next few weeks and months. I haven't "refused" anything. You however have refused to answer a direct question that *could* lead to areas of agreement between us. Your only motive in not doing so could only be related to your A) lack of knowledge (as in you disagree), or B) your desire to keep the conversation unnecessarily unprofessional for as long as possible. Which is it?

No. I am asking you to demonstrate that your claim is true, and you are refusing to do that. Your dishonesty in misrepresenting what it is I'm doing here is noted.

What are you talking about? I already *DEMONSTRATED* it once in "real time", and I will do so many more times in this thread. RC even already provided us with a paper that shows a very strong correlation between erupting filaments and CME's. Spaceweather.com certainly has it's eye on those dark filaments and has suggested the could "erupt", so the 'experts' seem to understand that connection too.

The dark filaments being related to CMEs is quite a different issue than them causing CMEs.

It's the material in the dark filament that turns into the CME when it 'erupts'.

Your claim is that they are the trigger, that they cause the CMEs. And again I'll remind you that after being asked many times to support that claim, you have been wholly unable to do that.

That's not so. I used that method to successfully predict a CME. I showed you how the one flare was directed *AT* that rising filament we could see in 193A high cadence images too in one of the flares I did post mortem on a while back. You're simply ignoring what I've posted.

Big deal. So what? Your claim is that the dark filaments cause the CMEs. So prove it already.

Sorry, but I can't rush the sun. It works on it's own timing. I can only tell you when thing are happening. Once we see another filament erupt, I'll tell you when you'll see them show up in Lasco/Cor images. There's certainly a cause/effect link between those rising filaments (not all of them do that by the way) and CME's. Even that paper assumes as much.

You are again misrepresenting what it is I'm doing here.

No, you make it clear in every post. In every post you include personal attack, including this one which questions my "honesty". You're not interested in a scientific conversation, you're interested in a verbal fight. If you were interested in an honest scientific conversation, you would have just answer my question directly, and you would have done so the first time I asked.
 
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I have already demonstrated it is so once, [...]


No, you have not. You have seen what might be a correlation, but you have not demonstrated in any way that there is a causal relationship. Your claim is that the dark filaments cause the CMEs. In light of the fact that you have been unable to support that claim, are you now prepared to abandon it?

[...] and I will do so many more times of the next few weeks and months.


You can only do something more times after you have done it at least once. So far you haven't demonstrated even once that your claim about dark filaments causing CMEs is true. You might want to start there.

I haven't "refused" anything. You however have refused to answer a direct question that *could* lead to areas of agreement between us. Your only motive in not doing so could only be related to your A) lack of knowledge (as in you disagree), or B) your desire to keep the conversation unnecessarily unprofessional for as long as possible. Which is it?


My motive is to somehow or other get you to demonstrate the truth of your claim that the dark filaments trigger the CMEs. Or alternatively to get your acknowledgment that you are unable to support that claim so this discussion can move forward.

What are you talking about? I already *DEMONSTRATED* it once in "real time", and I will do so many more times in this thread. RC even already provided us with a paper that shows a very strong correlation between erupting filaments and CME's. Spaceweather.com certainly has it's eye on those dark filaments and has suggested the could "erupt", so the 'experts' seem to understand that connection too.


First, no, you haven't demonstrated it once in real time or otherwise. You've claimed it. Claiming it doesn't make it true. And second, it is not true that the reference that Reality Check offered supports your claim that the dark filaments cause the CMEs.

It's the material in the dark filament that turns into the CME when it 'erupts'.


So?

That's not so. I used that method to successfully predict a CME. I showed you how the one flare was directed *AT* that rising filament we could see in 193A high cadence images too in one of the flares I did post mortem on a while back. You're simply ignoring what I've posted.


And again you're claiming to have applied a "method", yet having been asked many, many times to provide that method, you haven't. So provide your legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions". Explain it here, in detail, with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and everything. We've been waiting for over 200 posts and we're well into the seventh page of this thread with no such method yet described.

Sorry, but I can't rush the sun. It works on it's own timing. I can only tell you when thing are happening.


Indeed. You can tell when things are happening by using the simple method of looking at an image of existing activity and stating that the activity exists. And again I'll ask why you think there's anything special, unique, or interesting about that.

Once we see another filament erupt, I'll tell you when you'll see them show up in Lasco/Cor images. There's certainly a cause/effect link between those rising filaments (not all of them do that by the way) and CME's. Even that paper assumes as much.


No, that paper does not assume so.

No, you make it clear in every post. In every post you include personal attack, including this one which questions my "honesty". You're not interested in a scientific conversation, you're interested in a verbal fight. If you were interested in an honest scientific conversation, you would have just answer my question directly, and you would have done so the first time I asked.


Your continued attempt at making an argument by dishonestly misrepresenting my position is noted.
 
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http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/img/latest/latest_1024_0193.mpg

FYI, we are close to seeing a dark filament eruption in the southern hemisphere. Due to the cadence of the 193A images, we can see the dark plasma has begun rising into the atmosphere. Sometimes that material can be pulled back, whereas other times is will start to accelerate away from the sun. I'm not seeing any overt acceleration away from the surface yet, but the thread is very high in the atmosphere now and that could change pretty quickly. The really cool thing about 193A SDO images is the cadence of the SDO system and the full disc high resolution images. The threads become very visible and we can see material flowing back and forth inside the dark thread. SDO rocks! Cudos to the designers.
 
While we're waiting GM....

Why don't you download the movie and notice what happened to the dark filament in the southern hemisphere over the last 30-40 minutes. The plasma started rising higher into the atmosphere, and at a critical point (high enough in the atmosphere) that plasma "reconnects" (electromagnetically) to the heliosphere. That is the plasma that is currently turning into a "mass ejection". That material (mass flow) will show up in Lasco images in a few hours.
 
While we're waiting GM....


I have no interest in following a wild goose chase. You may ignore the issue all you like, but what we're waiting for is your support for your claim that the dark filaments cause CMEs, or alternatively your acknowledgement that you cannot support it and that you are abandoning the claim so we can leave it behind.

We're also waiting to hear your legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", explained in detail, with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and everything. Without that, anything else you say about what you see can be dismissed as guessing. If you don't have such a method, acknowledge that you don't and we can leave that issue behind, too.

You've made these claims. The burden is yours to support them. If in fact you cannot, the honest, scientific thing to do is acknowledge that you can't. So in pretty much as simple terms as possible...

Yes or no, are you able to scientifically, quantitatively, and objectively demonstrate that the dark filaments cause CMEs, or otherwise provide valid scientific references to support your claim?

Yes or no, do you have a legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", a method that you can explain in detail, with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and all?​
 
I have no interest in following a wild goose chase.
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c2.mpg
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/2010/10/18/behind_20101018_cor2_512.mpg
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/2010/10/18/ahead_20101018_cor2_512.mpg

We'll get to see, oh in an hour or two, whether or not dark thread eruption is was a "wild goose" chase. I just checked and nothing so far, but the mass flow from that dark filament eruption should be showing up any old time now.

You may ignore the issue all you like, but what we're waiting for is your support for your claim that the dark filaments cause CMEs, or alternatively your acknowledgement that you cannot support it and that you are abandoning the claim so we can leave it behind.

You'll have to wait for a couple of hours, but it's coming. :)

We're also waiting to hear your legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", explained in detail, with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and everything.

Hours is a unit of measurement is it not?

Without that, anything else you say about what you see can be dismissed as guessing. If you don't have such a method, acknowledge that you don't and we can leave that issue behind, too.

There's no "guessing" involved. I "watched" the filament erupt in 193A. It's now just a matter of time before that mass flow shows up as a flare in LASCO and COR. It's like watching lightning and "knowing' there will be thunder. In this case the "timing' is mostly related to the travel distance before it becomes visible in COR and LASCO.

You've made these claims. The burden is yours to support them.

You will see that support in red and white before the day is through. :)

The rest of your post is rehash. FYI, this is like "shooting fish out of a barrel" once you get the hang of it. If you know that mass flow began near the surface, and it's headed "out", it's gotta show up in those cor and lasco images sooner or later. :)
 
Well, with less than an hour to go in my 48 hour window, it looks like the final tally for my 48 hour prediction period netted me 1 M class flare, 4 C class flares and a half dozen or so little flares too. Not bad, not bad. :)
 
Well, with less than an hour to go in my 48 hour window, it looks like the final tally for my 48 hour prediction period netted me 1 M class flare, 4 C class flares and a half dozen or so little flares too. Not bad, not bad. :)


Big deal. You looked at a picture of some activity occurring on the Sun, and you guessed there would be more. So what?
 
You forgot to answer these questions, Michael...

Yes or no, are you able to scientifically, quantitatively, and objectively demonstrate that the dark filaments cause CMEs, or otherwise provide valid scientific references to support your claim?

Yes or no, do you have a legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", a method that you can explain in detail, with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and all?​
 
Big deal. You looked at a picture of some activity occurring on the Sun, and you guessed there would be more. So what?

That is simply a false statement. I told you exactly how I did it. There had not been a single C class flare on our side of the sun for 12 days prior to the 48 hour window I selected. That same active region has been in view for about a week and had not produced any C class flares. I didn't not "see some activity and guess there would be more". There had been no flare activity in that active region until that 48 hour window I selected.
 
Will I beat Micheal Mozina in his guessing game

So lets see if I can be vague as you:
I guess (because active regions are... active!) that there will be an EM type of 'flare/cme" from region 11112 on the Sun in the next 48 hours (from 2010 Oct 17 08:30 UTC)
It is now 18-Oct-2010 18:30 UT
Well , with a few more hours to go in my 48 hour window, it looks like the final tally for my 48 hour prediction period will net me at least 1 M class flare, 4 C class flares and a half dozen or so little flares too. Not bad, not bad. :D
I think I am going to beat Michael Mozina in his guessing game :jaw-dropp!

I wonder what will happen with my last prediction:
So I will make another prediction:

Region 11112 will produce an event in the next 48 hours (from 18 October 2010 01:48 UT)

P.S. Michael Mozina:
 
That is simply a false statement. I told you exactly how I did it.


Where? Where's the legitimately scientific, quantitative, objective method for making your "predictions", explained in detail with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, and all? Where?
 
It is now 18-Oct-2010 18:30 UT
Well , with a few more hours to go in my 48 hour window, it looks like the final tally for my 48 hour prediction period will net me at least 1 M class flare, 4 C class flares and a half dozen or so little flares too. Not bad, not bad.

Er, no. I saw your posted time. By then you had already missed the M and at least the first (probably the 2nd) C class flare too RC. At least keep an accurate scorecard. You could "luck out' of course and score a few hits on the other side however, so don't close your scorecard just yet. :)

So are you betting for or against me on the last erupting filament prediction?
 
If and when you get around to duplicating anything I've done, then you can say "So what"? Solar flare/CME prediction is the hottest thing in solar physics, literally. :)


Again, big deal. Who cares? So what? Michael, science isn't a contest or a guessing game. Where's the legitimately scientific, objective, quantitative method for making what you call "predictions", explained in detail with the relevant math, numbers, units of measurement, showing your work and all that? Where's your quantitative, objective, scientifically sound support demonstrating your claim that the dark filaments cause CMEs?
 

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