Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Trigood]

Are you quite sure "they" neglect to mention it?

In fact, can you even reference a single post where anyone in the "innocent" camp (for want of a better shorthand) has ever claimed that the first police who arrived at the cottage - just before 1.00pm - were responding to Sollecito's 12.55pm call (which, incidentally, was directed to a completely separate police agency)?

No time to look it up now (hey, I have a life! ) but maybe sometime in the near future.

And no, I never claimed (until you put the words in my mouth) that the Innocentisti "claimed" the postal police were responding to Raff's call... only that they strategically fail to mention that they weren't, and thereby imply something they wish others to believe.

Like I said, I have a life. I'll look for examples later.

 

[Alt+F4]

OK, so I see, so it's not at all suspicious to leave bloody footprints and shoeprints at the scene of the crime, but a murderer running from the scene in the full dark would be all concerned about how suspicious were a few bloody drops on his pants, that he could quickly change and discard at home in 10 seconds.

Add to that if he was working alone why take the time to clean off blood on the bottom of your pants leg when the other roommates could be walking in at any moment?

The "cleaning up in the bidet" bit only works if the blood was very low down on his trouser leg, someplace most people with not notice.

In addition, we are being told the the amount of blood on his pants leg wasn't enough to leave a blood trail from the bedroom but was enough to leave the print, even after being diluted with water.

 

[SomeAlibi]

You are a defence lawyer, aren't you? Do you think that the jury "fitted up" Barry George in his original trial? Do you think that the jury "fitted up" Stefan Kiszco in his first trial?

Why is it therefore necessary to believe that the judicial panel "fitted up" Sollecito (or Knox) in their first trial to believe that a miscarriage may have occurred? I'm disappointed, to be honest.

Barry George fitted the profile as a weirdo, loner and sex attacker. You're saying there's a relevance to Raffaele Sollecito? C'mon.

Please stop with the "disappointed" thing and the snipes. I am making my points honestly and openly whether you disagree with them to the ends of the earth or not. It makes you sound intellectually threatened by my arguments because you keep on playing the man not the ball.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Oh, so you've chosen my second option (which you haven't quoted above), that he inexplicably cleaned blood off his pants (why?) in his bare feet, blood traveled against the laws of physics to the bottoms of his soles, then (after leaving a clear bathroom print), he put his shoes back on, went to back to the bedroom, walked around in her blood, and then walked out knowing he was leaving a clear bloody trail of shoeprints that would identify him? Why, if he was so meticulous about a few blood splashes on his pants (were they designer?) that would not even identify him, did he not give a damn about blood on the soles of his shoes that would clearly identify him to the cops?

Not only are these actions totally inexplicable and ridiculous, but as both SomeAlibi and I have pointed out, the very possibility that this could physically happen (diluted blood smearing itself over the soles of one's feet in enough quantity to leave a coherent bloody print) is impossible. No jury would believe it.

What do you think happened?

 

[LondonJohn]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but if the print is Rafaelle's and the rest of them were cleaned up, wouldn't we see different luminol evidence in the bathroom. I saw a picture somewhere showing a bloody scene, after being cleaned up, and after the application of luminol and you could see exactly where it had all been wiped up.

Exactly. There was no evidence of a clean-up of footprints. There was evidence that someone went into the small bathroom to clean blood from his body and probably clothing. There is no evidence that the floor was cleaned post-murder in either the bathroom, the hallway, or Meredith's room. None whatsoever.

 

[LondonJohn]

Barry George fitted the profile as a weirdo, loner and sex attacker. You're saying there's a relevance to Raffaele Sollecito? C'mon.

Please stop with the "disappointed" thing and the snipes. I am making my points honestly and openly whether you disagree with them to the ends of the earth or not. It makes you sound intellectually threatened by my arguments because you keep on playing the man not the ball.

I'm disappointed that you chose to use the loaded term "fitted up" where that term is entirely inappropriate to the issue at hand. Either you did it deliberately, in order to set up a false dilemma, or you did it accidentally. Either option isn't good. And, believe me, I'm not feeling intellectually threatened

 

[Trigood]

What do you think happened?

About what? The bloody footprint on the mat?

I think Raff was barefoot in the murder room. He walked to the bathroom, thru the bathroom (leaving the bloody footprint on the mat, (in the correct orientation toward the shower, as SomeAlibi has noted), stripped, got into the shower, and cleaned up.

Later, he went back and wiped off the blood where he'd walked with bare feet on the tile, but was stymied in cleaning the bath mat.

The next day, he either forgot about or didn't have time to clean the bathmat of its blood.

Quite simple and fits the evidence. Occam's razor.

 

[Trigood]

Exactly. There was no evidence of a clean-up of footprints. There was evidence that someone went into the small bathroom to clean blood from his body and probably clothing. There is no evidence that the floor was cleaned post-murder in either the bathroom, the hallway, or Meredith's room. None whatsoever.

Luminol showing bare footprints is not evidence of a cleanup?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Yes, those are both fragments that are public. Do you remember where have you seen the rest?

Sorry for it SomeAlibi. I see you don't remember if you've seen more of it.
I understand that you're basing your theory on those two short excerpts that are available?

 

[Trigood]

You are a defence lawyer, aren't you? Do you think that the jury "fitted up" Barry George in his original trial? Do you think that the jury "fitted up" Stefan Kiszco in his first trial?

Why is it therefore necessary to believe that the judicial panel "fitted up" Sollecito (or Knox) in their first trial to believe that a miscarriage may have occurred? I'm disappointed, to be honest.

I've never heard of Barry George, but wrt Kiszco, there was a clear mishandling of witness evidence and forensic evidence, neither of which exist in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed#Poor_defence

But most importantly, there was highly incompetent defense counsel (David Waddington) who was later disgraced as a result. Waddington was also a huge proponent of capital punishment. He was accepted by a poor defendant as his best last hope, only to play the trial for publicity and notoriety and advancement.

Are you saying that this situation bears any resemblance to the Sollecitos, a very wealthy family who could afford to (and did) hire the best defense counsel money can buy, which (by all accounts) has done a more than competent job?

And now, I must withdraw from this fascinating discussion for the time being; life calls.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

which bathroom

Point of information: Rudy never did admit to going to the bathroom to clean blood off himself. He said he went to get towels. In his diary he said that he had blood on him as he returned home to change. He says nothing about washing himself or having wet trousers or anything similar.

SomeAlibi,

Rudy's appeal says, "and noticing Cutting the wound to Meredith's neck, try to patch the wound with a towel in the bathroom but, but, as blood flowed, took - another, he realized that Meredith tried to speak but could only understand the word " AF "did not call the doctor because, because of-all that blood was totally confused, then, having experienced the noise, probably coming from the apartment below and left the house while he went out,"

It is not clear which bathroom he means, but I would say he has put himself in a bathroom.

 

[Kaosium]

Furthermore you have unflatteringly predicted for Mingini an epitaph "Whom Gods Destroy..."
Given the Mediterranean locale the original (Greek ?) might be more appropriate than what I take is a Star Trek ? reference.

'Whom Gods destroy, they first make mad.' Euripedes I think, and it was the title of an original Star Trek episode, though they used the literal meaning in that Garth of Izar went insane. My classics teacher in college taught us another meaning, that a better translation would be for someone who went 'mad' with power; that in triumphalism they overreach which causes their demise. In other words more along the lines of 'Pride cometh before the fall.'

In Mignini's case it may very well be both, his erratic behavior, theories and stated beliefs indict him on both counts.

But this is not addresing the issue of what the you think the appeal can hope to succeed on.

What makes you think this issue is limited solely to the appeal? This is about a delusional prosecutor who exploited the murder of a young girl and railroaded two innocent young people and splashed it all over the world's tabloids. This doesn't end with the appeal, no matter how many times Mignini shows he can game the system he is a master of he will not change the fact there's no physical evidence of Amanda and Raffaele's involvement, and in fact the real evidence exonerates them. Common sense exonerates them. The real killer has even said repeatedly he did it alone.

If this hadn't come to the world's attention he might have gotten away with it, but at this point it is impossible the truth won't become glaringly obvious to all in time. My guess is the Italians will eventually give him the metaphorical meathook.

 

[Alt+F4]

Rudy's appeal says, "and noticing Cutting the wound to Meredith's neck, try to patch the wound with a towel in the bathroom but, but, as blood flowed, took - another, he realized that Meredith tried to speak but could only understand the word " AF "did not call the doctor because, because of-all that blood was totally confused, then, having experienced the noise, probably coming from the apartment below and left the house while he went out,"

It is not clean which bathroom he means.

"All that blood" and "totally confused" but still was able to avoid leaving bloody footprints while going into the bathroom to get the towels?

 

[LondonJohn]

Luminol showing bare footprints is not evidence of a cleanup?

Errr no, it's not. It's evidence of bare footprints. Evidence of a cleanup would be Luminol showing smearing where footprints had once existed but had been wiped clean.

 

[Dan O.]

SomeAlibi, Had you viewed the original mat? Or are you basing your opinion of the non-dilution of the print on the enhanced photos?

Since you are sticking to Massei's theory of tracking the blood from the bedroom to the bathroom mat, where do you place the foot steps starting from the point of stepping in the pool of blood to the step onto the mat? Where in the bedroom are the extensive pools of blood to get that coverage of the bare foot? Are there any that would allow the next placement of the left foot outside of the bedroom? Or are you going to extend the cleanup theory into the bedroom itself?! Alternatively, do you presume hopping on one foot, navigating around Meredith's body, avoiding any of the smaller blood splatter in the bedroom and making it into the small bath where inexplicably the foot is planted on the bathmat right when there is maximum support in the form of fixtures in the bath and even the opportunity to sit down on the toilet without dropping the foot and leaving a track?!

By excluding my simple alternative you are accepting Massei's claim for which he doesn't even postulate a viable mechanism to fulfill it.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Any theory as to how the footprint got on the mat requires one to speculate. Massei's premise is that Raffaele removed his shoes, stepped in Meredith's blood, and walked into the bathroom where he left the print on the mat. Later, he or Amanda cleaned up the footprints leading to the mat.

Certainly that is speculation, and I see several problems with the reasoning.

First, the stain is faded but uniform in appearance, suggesting it was made with bloody water rather than blood that had been stepped in elsewhere. And indeed photos show dried splashes made with bloody water in the basin of the bidet, which Massei makes no attempt to explain.

Second, no bare footprints of any kind were found in the room where Meredith was killed, the source of the blood.

Third, it makes no sense to think the Amanda and/or Raffaele cleaned up bare footprints - very precisely, so as not to disturb Rudy's shoe prints in the same area - but then left this print on the mat in plain sight.

On your first point, there is another mechanism which is if the stain was made by someone exiting the shower from where they were showering. The orientation of the bathmat could have been changed by Amanda if she really did a bathmat shuffle where she replaced it where it should go in her own words. But not the very unlikely rotation point.

On the second, there wouldn't be if they had been cleaned. We know that there isn't any evidence of egregiously stepping in the main areas of blood. Meredith was killed in the far corner of the room, on her knees facing away from the attackers who were restraining her. We know that *no-one* stepped in the very thickest part of the blood stains.

On the reason for the bathmat still being left there, Amanda and Raffaele were reported as being "startled" when the police turned up and they were sat with the mops outside the house, probably trying to get some fresh air and think. They knew they had a number of problems outstanding as they had not yet finished with the clean-up. She knew there was blood on the faucet, in the sink and on the mat which she nevertheless used to do the bathmat shuffle despite the fact that she thought it was menstrual blood (one look at it, makes this very hard to believe, surely, even to people who believe her) and that it was "ewwww". Amanda detailed all of these locations of blood in her extraordinarily micro-detailed alibi creation in her email home to friends and family written in the small hours of the fourth of November.

She knew she had to account for all of it and came up with all of the ideas in that extraordinary 2,900 word email in the early hours of the 4th, 1,900 words of which are taken up by the incredibly fine detail of her movements on the 1st and 2nd *before* the finding of the body. It smacks of someone trying to create a detailed alibi for themselves before they have to go back for questioning. It's an email where there is one reference to Meredith being "beautiful, funny". There are no references in 2,900 words whatsoever about feelings of grief, fright, horror, terrible thoughts about if she suffered, *nothing* that one gets from friends in such situations. She does talk about being "bummed" about having to move out of the house though...

 

[LondonJohn]

I've never heard of Barry George, but wrt Kiszco, there was a clear mishandling of witness evidence and forensic evidence, neither of which exist in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed#Poor_defence

But most importantly, there was highly incompetent defense counsel (David Waddington) who was later disgraced as a result. Waddington was also a huge proponent of capital punishment. He was accepted by a poor defendant as his best last hope, only to play the trial for publicity and notoriety and advancement.

Are you saying that this situation bears any resemblance to the Sollecitos, a very wealthy family who could afford to (and did) hire the best defense counsel money can buy, which (by all accounts) has done a more than competent job?

And now, I must withdraw from this fascinating discussion for the time being; life calls.

You obviously don't appreciate that I'm objecting to the use of the pejorative term "fit up" as part of an implicit suggestion that to believe Sollecito's conviction is unsafe is to believe that he was "fitted up".

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Luminol showing bare footprints is not evidence of a cleanup?

As I understand it, a clean-up of bare footprints would look like smears on top of footprints, not perfectly delineated 'hidden' footprints. In fact, any blood substance cleaned up and then luminoled (is that a word?!) clearly shows the wiping streaks which were not present with the revealed footprints at the scene.

 

[SomeAlibi]

SomeAlibi,

Rudy's appeal says, "and noticing Cutting the wound to Meredith's neck, try to patch the wound with a towel in the bathroom but, but, as blood flowed, took - another, he realized that Meredith tried to speak but could only understand the word " AF "did not call the doctor because, because of-all that blood was totally confused, then, having experienced the noise, probably coming from the apartment below and left the house while he went out,"

It is not clean which bathroom he means.

It could be the other one, but given the bathroom is adjoining Meredith's bathroom, I think we must all consider that fairly unlikely?

 

[SomeAlibi]

Yes, those are both fragments that are public. Do you remember where have you seen the rest?

As I say in the quotation above your question, I'm not sure if I've actually seen the other part. Those supporting Amanda have the info, not me.