Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[Christian]

You are not wrong, if all you are talking about is your own, subjective personal experience, and your own personal, subjective definition of complexity in a language (which I find lacking, by the way). Apart from that, you are wrong.

And I say you are wrong.

1. Pronunciation. This may certainly be true. English pronunciation is difficult. Swedish pronunciation even more so, according to many who try to learn it, since we have a few sounds that are not familiar to most foreign speakers.

Who said any about pronunciation? The problem here is that I assume you know what I'm talking about. Now, I see you don't. I said: In Spanish, one pronounces how it is written.

Do you understand what that means? Ok, let me try again. Spanish is more phonetic language than English. The more phonetic a language is, the easier it is to read. The Latin languages (like Spanish) are the most phonetic (I think). I'm certain that Spanish is much more phonetic than English.

2. I do not understand this point at all. How on earth does that make English more complex (according to your very subjective definition of the word)? The other way around surely - we use the English words in our own languages, that makes it easier for us to understand English, rather than the opposite.

I thought naming them would be enough. Ok, here we go. Technology creates words, lots of words. Depending on the industry or area, words are created more quickly or not. Have you heard of "industry jargon". Because most technological advances come from English speaking countries, more words are created and layers of complexity are added to the language. New technologies create more layers of complexity in language. This should be evident.

I'll give one simple example. The word cookie (the language code inserted to local computers for tracking) does not exist in Spanish. We use the same English word. All the word we adopt from English are called "anglicismos" and many of the additions we get (like "internet") stay exactly as in the original English.

http://www.languagemonitor.com/number-of-words/number-of-words-in-the-english-language-1005366/

3. Wrong. English is not the most sopken language in the world, as you put it. In fact, I think you will find that Spanish is number two, and English is number three, after Chinese. A language that is spoken by large nuumbers of people leave traces in other languages, rather than pick up new words of its own.

Your facts are wrong.

The stats have changed. This is the current information.

http://www.languagemonitor.com/no-of-words/

Today, some 1.53 billion people now speak English as a primary, auxiliary, or business language, with some 250 million acquiring the language in China alone.

The fact that English has become a lingua franca means that it is often easier for people to pick it up, since it's familiar. Apart from that, languages are more or less difficult to learn, depending on your own native language. An Italian or a Portugese wouls naturally find Spanish much easier, and so on. To objectively measure that difficulty is impossible. To me, Spanish is far more difficult that English, since I find English grammar much less complex.

It is not.

See, Christian? Subjective, and not at all a particularly rational opinion. You are only right from your own particular pov, not objectively.

It seems I have to do all the heavy lifting to show my objectivity. On the other hand...

 

[Christian]

I don't think you understood what I said about definitions. When you quote from a dictionary, you are trying to say that definition is "correct", so you are trying to "win" an argument about definitions. If you don't want to argue about definitions, don't try to quote from a dictionary.

That is a complet straw man. I'm not arguing, per se, about which defintion is correct. I'm explaining how I used the word. I put the definition out there to show what I meant, according to the way I used word, according to how I understand the word to be defined.

Why would I accept the definition given to me by someone else just so I can satisfy how ever he or she wants to portray me?

 

[Christian]

(Of course, the U.S. has fifty states, the District of Columbia, and fourteen territories to Mexico's piddling thirty-one states and the Distrito Federal, but a whole lot of the world seems to think our culture fairly materialistic and shallow. So what does that do to the "number of states" qualification?)

Someone could argue that because your culture includes fairly materialistic and shallow elements, aside from the multitude of elements brought by the melting pot, the US culture is richer than lots.

 

[Christian]

You are not allowing for natural aptitude for or interest in a subject. Math is very hard for me, but language is relatively easy. It takes me longer to comprehend elements of mathematics than of a language. That doesn't mean math is more complex than language, just more difficult for me. Other people - my brother, for example - comprehend math easily.

If you want to say then math is more complex for me, I suppose you can, but then you're making everything subjective, so you can't generalize about things.

Calculus I will be harder than arithmetic, I promise.

And I know many native English speakers who can not hear the difference between the Spanish "r" and "rr," and insist that they cannot pronounce the "rr."

That was a straw man created by Helen.

 

[ideogram]

English is more sophisticated that what the Piraha speaks. That is just a fact. It is a measurable description.

Measured how, by number of words? This is not the only measure of sophistication. For example, German has a more sophisticated grammar than English. Also, the number of words in a language is hard to measure. Again, what counts as a "word" in German or Chinese is hard to define. Don't think you can simply count words in a dictionary.

You really need to study some linguistics.

 

[ideogram]

That is a complet straw man. I'm not arguing, per se, about which defintion is correct. I'm explaining how I used the word. I put the definition out there to show what I meant, according to the way I used word, according to how I understand the word to be defined.

Why would I accept the definition given to me by someone else just so I can satisfy how ever he or she wants to portray me?

No, you still don't understand what I meant. You would accept someone else's definition for the sake of communication. You are arguing, not listening.

 

[ideogram]

It seems I have to do all the heavy lifting to show my objectivity. On the other hand...

No, we are saying that the things you claim are objective, like "sophistication", cannot actually be measured objectively. If you studied some linguistics you would know this.

 

[ideogram]

I'll give one simple example. The word cookie (the language code inserted to local computers for tracking) does not exist in Spanish. We use the same English word. All the word we adopt from English are called "anglicismos" and many of the additions we get (like "internet") stay exactly as in the original English.

The process of borrowing words from other languages happens all the time. In fact, the reason English has so many word is because it borrows words from so many other languages. Over time, these words become part of the English language. Similarly, these words that Spanish borrows from English will become part of the Spanish language over time.

 

[ideogram]

Here's a little tip. If someone disagrees with you about what a word means, try to explain what you mean without using the word. Quoting from a dictionary is just a waste of time.

 

[Elizabeth I]

The process of borrowing words from other languages happens all the time. In fact, the reason English has so many word is because it borrows words from so many other languages. Over time, these words become part of the English language. Similarly, these words that Spanish borrows from English will become part of the Spanish language over time.

This is a great point - look at how many words English has borrowed just from Spanish, for example.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Calculus I will be harder than arithmetic, I promise.

What does that have to do with what I said? The point is that you seem to say that level of difficulty is somehow linked to how complex a subject is, and thus to how "sophisticated" it is, BUT what you are failing to take into account is that "level of difficulty" is subjective.

Math comes relatively easy to my brother. Does that make him "unsophisticated" because it is easier for him than it is for me? Gosh, I'll have to tell him the PhD in math was all for nothing.

I know people who will never learn a language other than English. Their brains just don't work that way, or something. But that doesn't make them "unsophisticated." It just means that language is difficult for them.

 

[Christian]

Measured how, by number of words? This is not the only measure of sophistication. For example, German has a more sophisticated grammar than English. Also, the number of words in a language is hard to measure. Again, what counts as a "word" in German or Chinese is hard to define. Don't think you can simply count words in a dictionary.

You really need to study some linguistics.

Please tell that to these guys.

http://www.languagemonitor.com/number-of-words/number-of-words-in-the-english-language-1005366/

 

[Christian]

No, you still don't understand what I meant. You would accept someone else's definition for the sake of communication. You are arguing, not listening.

I see. I accept that someone else call me a bigot based on their definition, of course, for the sake of communication.

 

[Christian]

No, we are saying that the things you claim are objective, like "sophistication", cannot actually be measured objectively. If you studied some linguistics you would know this.

So, what you'r saying is that if someone says, "this is more sophysticated than that", he or she must place a constant disclamer stating "for me and only for me". Of course, one can objectively call something more sophisticated. I can only imagine if I were to discuss the objective elements of human beauty.

 

[Christian]

The process of borrowing words from other languages happens all the time. In fact, the reason English has so many word is because it borrows words from so many other languages. Over time, these words become part of the English language. Similarly, these words that Spanish borrows from English will become part of the Spanish language over time.

The point it is going predominantly one way, because English is more complex and Spanish is not keeping up.

 

[Christian]

Here's a little tip. If someone disagrees with you about what a word means, try to explain what you mean without using the word. Quoting from a dictionary is just a waste of time.

That is exactly what I did. I said I used it as synonym for complex. I defined it as a complex in a quantitative connotation. The response was an imposition of what I meant, only and only to be explained as bigotry.

 

[Christian]

This is a great point - look at how many words English has borrowed just from Spanish, for example.

Yes, a miniscule amount compared to the other way around, taco for example, a Mexican food.

 

[Christian]

What does that have to do with what I said? The point is that you seem to say that level of difficulty is somehow linked to how complex a subject is,

Exactly, exactly. A perfect correlation the more complex a subject, the more difficult it is. It is more difficult because it is more complex.

and thus to how "sophisticated" it is, BUT what you are failing to take into account is that "level of difficulty" is subjective.

No, level of difficulty is measured in averages. This distinction is what you are missing. Calculus is difficult for the average person. I was very easy for Einstein but his intelligence was not average.

Math comes relatively easy to my brother. Does that make him "unsophisticated" because it is easier for him than it is for me? Gosh, I'll have to tell him the PhD in math was all for nothing.

No, it makes him smarter than the general population. Most Math PhD's are held by people who are very smart.

I know people who will never learn a language other than English. Their brains just don't work that way, or something. But that doesn't make them "unsophisticated." It just means that language is difficult for them.

We would have to check each person's IQ and compare each to the average. Then, we can make inferences about difficulty.

Becoming a world class violinist is very, very, very difficult. Learning to play that instrument is more difficult than learning to play the lauto dolce.

 

[Olowkow]

The point it is going predominantly one way, because English is more complex and Spanish is not keeping up.

Could you elaborate please?

 

[Elizabeth I]

This is a great point - look at how many words English has borrowed just from Spanish, for example.

Yes, a miniscule amount compared to the other way around, taco for example, a Mexican food.

armada
armadillo
adobe
aficionado
alligator
arroyo
banana
bandolier
barbecue
barracuda
barrio
bolero
bonanza
bronco
burro
cabana
café
cafeteria
calaboose
caldera
canyon
chaparral
chicle
chocolate
cigarette
cigar
cocoa
corral
patio
coyote
hoosegow (my personal favorite)
rodeo
lariat
lasso
crusade
desperado
embargo
fiesta
guerrilla
mesa (the geological formation)
etc.

The only difference is that these words (and many more) have been in the English language for a long time, and Spanish is now borrowing some new words from English.