Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[katy_did]

I think it would be beneficial to finally translate the Q, X, Y and Z of Mr. P into plain E. I mean English
It's my private translation and I of course welcome corrections.

Apparently P assumes that Amanda stopped the December 17 questioning after a mere 6 hours because she decided not to answer a question about the Nov 5/6 interrogation.

This assumption is of course false, because during the trial citations from that interrogation appear in which Amanda details the circumstances of the Nov 5/6 illegal interrogation and subsequent accusation of Patrick.

P's conclusion that is false states that the account of the illegal interrogation confirming the internalized false confession didn't emerge until the trial. That's false because even her Nov 6 written note is clearly indicating an internalized false confession and her explanations both from the Dec 17 and the trial are perfectly consistent with it and each other.

That's basically it. The P's mole is whacked and no more literary allusions are needed when we have a gem like "vedo i flash" which could be a motto of this particular mole

Nice post, Katody. Though I still think the answer to Q is 42.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Thanks, katy_did !

The theory brought up by piktor and Trigood that Comodi deliberately lied, deceived and played dirty games during trial is fascinating. Can't wait too see it unfold fully.

 

[Kestrel]

Why did Comodi decide to play games in the court and lie about the call being made at 12 o'clock ? She lied about the time and she lied about the call being made when "nothing had happened yet".

Have you checked the Massei already? Do you know when that call was made?

It's time for a reality check.

The first indication of concern was Amanda's 12:07 PM call to Meredith's UK phone. A minute later, Amanda called Filomena. That was followed by a call to Meredith's Italian phone and a second attempt to call the UK phone. Filomena then called Amanda three times. During one of these calls, Amanda told her about the broken window and that her room appeared to have been tossed.

All of this happened before Amanda made the first phone call to her mother at 12:47 PM. She called her mother a couple more times after the police had arrived.

All of this activity can be seen in Amanda's phone records from that day.


The prosecutor's claim that this call happened at 12 and before anything had happened is simply a lie.

 

[LondonJohn]

You think there are NO POSSIBLE PLAUSIBLE reasons why she might not want to recount the contents of that call? (One example: "Mom, please get me outta here!" Another: "Mom, I may need a lawyer soon!")

The fact remains, she lied about it on the stand.

Not a crime in Italy, fortunately for her.

But there's no evidence whatsoever that she said anything remotely of this kind in her call to her mother. The evidence from both her mother and her, in this call which only lasted 88 seconds, is that Amanda told her mother that she was sorry to call her at such an early hour (04.47am in Seattle), but that she was getting concerned about an apparent break-in to Filomena's room, the absence of Meredith, and the presence of blood. Her mother then advised her to call the local police, and to call back later, and the call terminated.

And anyhow, even if, let's suppose, she HAD made some sort of admission of culpability in the call to her mother, there's still nothing to be gained by pretending that the call never even took place. Even Knox would know that phone companies keep records of calls. All she would have needed to do was invent an alternative dialogue for that call, rather than deny that it ever even took place.

The far, far more obvious probability is that Knox simply forgot having placed this initial 12.47am call to her mother, in the light of the mayhem and emotional upheaval that ensued in the following hours (and which had begun even before that call). Nothing sinister. No "lies".

 

[LondonJohn]

My explanation: It does not make a lot of sense. It is this lack of a logical pattern that points to flight from truth and deception.

This is a murder investigation, not a "who put a hand inside the cookie jar" investigation. Knox decided to play games with her own mother, a prosecutor and the presiding judge in a courtroom.

But why??? What could she possibly gain by doing so?

 

[katy_did]

Why did Comodi decide to play games in the court and lie about the call being made at 12 o'clock ? She lied about the time and she lied about the call being made when "nothing had happened yet".

And she was totally aware she was lying. I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere, but someone made the point that Comodi said to Amanda: "Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened."

This is just after Amanda has told her there's a 9 hour time difference between Perugia and Seattle. If she called at midday, that makes it three o'clock, not four o'clock. So either Comodi's maths is really bad, or she said 'three or four o'clock in the morning' to cover herself, knowing the call really happened closer to 4 a.m., i.e. 1 p.m. in Perugia.

 

[Kestrel]

You think there are NO POSSIBLE PLAUSIBLE reasons why she might not want to recount the contents of that call? (One example: "Mom, please get me outta here!" Another: "Mom, I may need a lawyer soon!")

Are you really that naive that you consider asking for a lawyer as evidence of guilt?



Laura and Filomena both lawyered up on the day the body was discovered. Amanda was the only one of the three surviving roommates that didn't have a lawyer.

 

[Katody Matrass]

And she was totally aware she was lying. I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere, but someone made the point that Comodi said to Amanda: "Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened."

This is just after Amanda has told her there's a 9 hour time difference between Perugia and Seattle. If she called at midday, that makes it three o'clock, not four o'clock. So either Comodi's maths is really bad, or she said 'three or four o'clock in the morning' to cover herself, knowing the call really happened closer to 4 a.m., i.e. 1 p.m. in Perugia.

This is outrageous! Not long ago one of the prosecutors turned out to be a criminal and now I learn that the other is a dirty liar. I can't believe the plausible bunch have a nerve to defend those criminals and liars. Shame

 

[LondonJohn]

Massei p115:

"In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: "... oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46) ... stomach containing 500 cc alimentary bolus, green brown in which were recognizable caseosis (mozzarella?) and vegetable fibre".

My expertise comes from wiki. This on "caseosis":

Slow acting

"An attractive property of the casein molecule is its ability to form a gel or clot in the stomach. The ability to form this clot makes it very efficient in nutrient supply. The clot is able to provide a sustained slow release of amino acids into the blood stream, sometimes lasting for several hours.[3] This provides better nitrogen retention and utilization by the body."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein#Slow_acting

I ask, caseosis, as stated in the Massei report or "cheese", as stated by some.

Subjected for your consideration:

Caseosis present in the stomach -and Massei mentions caseosis specifically- content was due to the abundant butter and cream in the crumb cake and ice cream dessert, the "vegetal fibre" is apple from the crumb cake and maybe some remaining cheese.

Stomach content was not analysed, as far as I know.

Other than theorize Meredith had an "earlier lunchtime snack", for which there is no report, unless proof is presented it remains a theory.

I happen to theorize the content in the "last loop" of the intestine is indeed the 6:00PM pizza contents that slid through manipulation by Dr. Lalli, the examiner.

The remaining 500ml contents found in the stomach were the apple crumb and ice cream and possibly what was left of the pizza cheese. This, also my theory with no proof but my common sense.

Time of death was in effect left indeterminate based on stomach content, because it is less than accurate. Time of death based on body temperature was also left indeterminate because the weight of the victim was guessed at by different experts and the weight and ToD based on a guessed body weight is indeterminate, so my sense of logic says.

So, in this particular case, time of death is hypothetical, indeterminate by conventional scientific methods necessarily and by using common sense.

Ahh, you see, what you've done there is to home in on the prefix "caseo-" and decided that it means "casein". But regrettably you're quite wrong. Casein is a protein chain that is present in milk (and cheese), and its name derives directly from the latin word "caseus", meaning....."cheese". What Lalli is referring to in his autopsy report is emphatically NOT the protein molecule casein, it is a substance which is caseous in nature - in other words, cheese-like. He then goes as far as to suggest that this cheese-like substance is actually the mozzarella from the pizza. He knows what he saw, and he saw cheese-like matter. He did not see the protein molecule casein.

Also, apple is not a vegetable. It is a fruit. The girls testified that the pizza had vegetables on the topping.

And lastly, I need to disabuse you of the notion that Lalli somehow manipulated chyme matter down to the final loop of Meredith's small intestine. Her small intestine would have been at least 5 metres in length, with the flexibility and elasticity of sausage skin (which is typically made from the pig's small intestine). It's impossible that a pathologist such as Lalli would have squeezed chyme matter for over 4.5 metres by mistake. I assume you're not suggesting that he did it deliberately......

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you really that naive that you consider asking for a lawyer as evidence of guilt?



Laura and Filomena both lawyered up on the day the body was discovered. Amanda was the only one of the three surviving roommates that didn't have a lawyer.

Not only that, IIRC both girls' very first calls upon hearing of Meredith's death were to their lawyers.

 

[LondonJohn]

And she was totally aware she was lying. I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere, but someone made the point that Comodi said to Amanda: "Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened."

This is just after Amanda has told her there's a 9 hour time difference between Perugia and Seattle. If she called at midday, that makes it three o'clock, not four o'clock. So either Comodi's maths is really bad, or she said 'three or four o'clock in the morning' to cover herself, knowing the call really happened closer to 4 a.m., i.e. 1 p.m. in Perugia.

In fact, I believe that on this particular day the time difference was only 8 hours, since the Italian clocks had gone back but the US clocks had not yet done so. So, actually, 12.47pm in Perugia was 4.47am in Seattle.

 

[platonov]

I think it would be beneficial to finally translate the Q, X, Y and Z of Mr. P into plain E. I mean English
It's my private translation and I of course welcome corrections.

Apparently P assumes that Amanda stopped the December 17 questioning after a mere 6 hours because she decided not to answer a question about the Nov 5/6 interrogation.

This assumption is of course false, because during the trial citations from that interrogation appear in which Amanda details the circumstances of the Nov 5/6 illegal interrogation and subsequent accusation of Patrick.

P's conclusion that is false states that the account of the illegal interrogation confirming the internalized false confession didn't emerge until the trial. That's false because even her Nov 6 written note is clearly indicating an internalized false confession and her explanations both from the Dec 17 and the trial are perfectly consistent with it and each other.

That's basically it. The P's mole is whacked and no more literary allusions are needed when we have a gem like "vedo i flash" which could be a motto of this particular mole

Katody Matrass
Your input is welcome as always - indeed it has been very valuable on this issue.
However the time for English-English translations is past - nor is it as easy as it looks as you appear to have failed to understand my point.
My analysis is there in plain English directly above this post of yours.

AS regards the bolded section Halides1* would disagree (and Rose Montague agrees with him) so thrash it out with them.

* Halides1 bases his theory on the opinions of C Dempsey & F Sfarzo [who definitely speaks Italian ] 2 bloggers who have been following the case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

12:47 pm

Hi Kids

Chris - "non-existent" - are you saying that Edda Mellas made up the first phonecall from Amanda to her? She's given testimony on oath in court about it, spoken about it on multiple tv shows, made written statements to the police about it. She was very detailed in her testimony about what Amanda said, the details of which I can provide you if you would like. Are you saying she made that up?

SA

SomeAlibi,

Comodi got the time wrong, as LondonJohn correctly noted. Did she make a mistake or was this intentional? I would appreciate it if you did not try to change the subject from the prosecution's failure to turn over needed files, files that were asked for on multiple occasions.

 

[RWVBWL]

In fact, I believe that on this particular day the time difference was only 8 hours, since the Italian clocks had gone back but the US clocks had not yet done so. So, actually, 12.47pm in Perugia was 4.47am in Seattle.

Hi LondonJohn,
From reading in Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy", on page 60:
At 12:47 pm, Amanda placed the 1st of 5 calls to her Mother, Edda, back home in Seattle, where it as 4:47 am. She said, "Mom, I'm okay, I'm home, but I think somebody might have been in my house." She told Edda about the open door, the blood in the bathroom, and the unflushed toilet. She said she couldn't find her roommate, Meredith.
Edda told her to hang up and call the police.

I find it interesting to read of this in C. Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy", for from what a few Colpevolisti posters here on JREF have said, it is not a good book to reference. BUT with information like this, it appears that Candace Dempsey did a great job researching the facts...

Where I come from, 4:47 AM is almost 5 O'Clock in the morning...

So why would Prosecutor Manuela Comodi say that?
""Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened."

What Prosecutor Comodi says, gives, to me at least, a sinister meaning to what appears to be a short phone call from a young gal, who is simply calling her Mother from a far away place because she is worried.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Katody Matrass]

Katody Matrass
Your input is welcome as always - indeed it has been very valuable on this issue.
However the time for English-English translations is past - nor is it as easy as it looks as you appear to have failed to understand my point.
My analysis is there in plain English directly above this post of yours.

Hi again platonov, I stand by my translation. I will of course consider any appeals and make necessary corrections, but I'm afraid that the post you mention doesn't qualify as such, as it (by my standards of plain English) requires translation also

 

[piktor]

But why??? What could she possibly gain by doing so?

There was nothing to gain. She could only lose with that kind of games. Unless she expected grown adults to accept her nonsense as the honest truth.

As I have said before, her pattern of nonsensical, illogical explanations put her where she is today. She is not believable. She earned her prison place.

 

[Katody Matrass]

There was nothing to gain. She could only lose with that kind of games. Unless she expected grown adults to accept her nonsense as the honest truth.

Interesting, do you consider Comodi's lies as honest truth? Or do you think it is acceptable for the prosecutor to deliberately lie and deceive in court during trial?

 

[LondonJohn]

There was nothing to gain. She could only lose with that kind of games. Unless she expected grown adults to accept her nonsense as the honest truth.

As I have said before, her pattern of nonsensical, illogical explanations put her where she is today. She is not believable. She earned her prison place.

But most people - even criminals - tend to only do or say things that are potentially in their best interest. For example, a criminal in a case with very little evidence will say he didn't commit the crime (even if he did), because he might get acquitted and set free through saying this. Conversely, a criminal in a case where there is a cast-iron case against him will usually plead guilty, because this will generally lead to a lesser sentence.

In other words, people generally make choices based upon the optimum expected outcome to them of making each particular choice. In this particular instance, you're suggesting that Knox consciously chose to pretend not to remember about the first call to her mother (even though she actually did remember it) - a choice which could only have negative implications for her. This runs contrary to human nature - even for Amanda Knox!

 

[piktor]

Ahh, you see, what you've done there is to home in on the prefix "caseo-" and decided that it means "casein". But regrettably you're quite wrong. Casein is a protein chain that is present in milk (and cheese), and its name derives directly from the latin word "caseus", meaning....."cheese". What Lalli is referring to in his autopsy report is emphatically NOT the protein molecule casein, it is a substance which is caseous in nature - in other words, cheese-like. He then goes as far as to suggest that this cheese-like substance is actually the mozzarella from the pizza. He knows what he saw, and he saw cheese-like matter. He did not see the protein molecule casein.

Also, apple is not a vegetable. It is a fruit. The girls testified that the pizza had vegetables on the topping.

And lastly, I need to disabuse you of the notion that Lalli somehow manipulated chyme matter down to the final loop of Meredith's small intestine. Her small intestine would have been at least 5 metres in length, with the flexibility and elasticity of sausage skin (which is typically made from the pig's small intestine). It's impossible that a pathologist such as Lalli would have squeezed chyme matter for over 4.5 metres by mistake. I assume you're not suggesting that he did it deliberately......

Caseosis was not defined in the report. One explanation is as good as the next, absent factual proof of what Massei meant by "caseosis".

And fruit fibre in a stomach bolus is definitely not vegetable fibre? Vegetable fibre was not clarified, by the way.

This must mean Meredith had apple crumble with no apple.

Stomach contents were not described in any detail. What the examiner saw can only be matter for conjecture.

 

[Danceme]

Not only that, IIRC both girls' very first calls upon hearing of Meredith's death were to their lawyers.

It's my understanding that both Laura and Filomena worked for lawyers so this is hardly a wonder, but I'm sure you knew that.