Has consciousness been fully explained?

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That still does not explain what you mean.

Of course it does. Unless you can point to more than one bodily function that stops when you fall asleep, starts back up when you dream, stops again when the dream is over, and starts again when you wake up.

It's like if I say, "Elanor caught a frog today" and you ask "Who is Elanor?" and I point to a 14 lb black cat lounging on the back of the sofa. I've just shown you what I mean by "Elanor". Would you then ask me for a definition?

Sofia is what is absent when you are asleep and not dreaming. It's your sense of being you.

We all have that. To say otherwise is just silly.
 
Give an example of such an experiment.

There are many.

Here's a study on the similarities and differences between the storage of conscious and unconscious memories: The brain performs that function in both cases, but somewhat differently.

Here's a study on hemineglect, one of many demonstrating that perception, processing, and response are handled with and without the involvement of consciousness.

The study which discovered the "signature" waves, which I cited above, demonstrates that perception of external stimuli occurs consciously and non-consciously. The cocktail party effect is another example of that.

Here's an article on the role of non-conscious processing on goal-directed learning. There are also studies showing that certain people who are blind -- because they are not consciously aware of any visual input -- can learn to navigate mazes, demonstrating that some non-conscious parts of their brains are still processing the information and learning from it.

An intriguing study on the role of non-conscious processing on complex decison-making.

An interesting little experiment teasing out the border between what is and is not made accessible to conscious awareness.

This basic science, Salti says, won't immediately provide marketers with the basis for a new and advanced kind of subliminal advertising. But it may answer long-debated questions about the mysterious nexus between our conscious and unconscious minds.

In their study, the researchers measured neural activity related to conscious perception. They connected test subjects to an electroencephalograph (EEG) that measured their brain activity, then exposed them to rapid visual stimuli -- square cubes on a computer screen that flashed on and off very quickly. Participants were instructed to indicate whether they had seen the stimulus and to report its location on the screen.

Some participants were able to identify where the stimulus appeared, but could not identify it as a square cube, allowing the researchers to explore how brain activity correlated with conscious perception.

The thing is, this is so well established by experiment that there's no longer any doubt about it. Our brains not only can, but constantly do, perceive the world, make decisions about it, respond to it, remember it, and learn from it without bothering to involve our conscious awareness at all.

And this is the problem with a lot of the so-called explanations of consciousness bandied about on so many of these threads.

It is not enough to describe a process that encompasses -- or even explains -- perception, processing, memory, and response. Because all of that can happen with or without the engagement of conscious awareness.

To explain consciousness, we must have a description of a physical mechanism that distinguishes those processes involved in conscious awareness from those which are not.

And if it is truly explanatory, it must also explain why we have this sense of felt experience which starts when we wake up and stops when we fall sleep.

Not only that, but it should also explain why consciousness exists in the first place.

It cannot be simply to perceive, process, record, respond, and even learn from experience, because all of that can be done without consciousness, which is a resource-intensive function and would not have evolved unless it were contributing something very important above and beyond those basic functions.

My feeling is that it evolved to handle higher-level decision-making which the non-conscious modules simply can't handle, and to make calls when these are in conflict with each other.
 
Can you explain what you mean? Perhaps you can phrase his objections in a way that makes more sense to me.

I don't really want to try to breakdown the whole exchange, but for example your idea about the significance of "ability to maintain stability" (paraphrasing) applies to many things, such as rocks. You seemed to take this as the claim that there is no difference between cells and rocks.
 
Specific examples require links.

A little schematic of Marvin's brain:



Has someone tried to measure these "4 brain-wide waves" in ants? What were the results? Do these waves define consciousness?

The nervous systems of ants are too simple to have them, so it would be silly to try to find them. We couldn't implant the sensory devices because there's nowhere to put them.

The waves do not "define" consciousness -- there's no need to "define" consciousness anyway -- but they are correlated with conscious events, and not with non-conscious events.
 
AFAIAA, PM has consistently made the claim that consciousness springs entirely from the function of the brain as a Turing Machine - and nothing else.

That is my recollection, too.

But, as with my recollection that he claims not to have a Sofia, I may be wrong.

PM can easily clear up the question by simply stating what it is he believes.
 
AFAIAA, PM has consistently made the claim that consciousness springs entirely from the function of the brain as a Turing Machine - and nothing else.
That is my recollection, too.
I don't think there is any doubt that this is what he has said and when questioned closely as to whether that is what he really meant he has responded with confident "yes". I can find links if needs be.

But I have never heard him claim that he does not have a Sofia.
 
If you hold to the view that consciousness is an algorithm and that any equivalent algorithm is conscious in the same way it leads to an apparent absurdity that your Sofia right now could be the product of people doing calculations with pencil and paper.

However if you reject the view that consciousness is an algorithm it leads to another apparent absurdity that the reason we claim to have a Sofia has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that we have a Sofia.

I find that an interesting little paradox.
 
If you hold to the view that consciousness is an algorithm and that any equivalent algorithm is conscious in the same way it leads to an apparent absurdity that your Sofia right now could be the product of people doing calculations with pencil and paper.

However if you reject the view that consciousness is an algorithm it leads to another apparent absurdity that the reason we claim to have a Sofia has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that we have a Sofia.

I find that an interesting little paradox.

Can you unpack that second statement a bit?
 
"Has consciousness been fully explained?"


Of course, the correct and completely sufficient answer is:

No.
 
Can you unpack that second statement a bit?
This is my point about the human simulation. That we might have a computer that ran a complete simulation of a human brain including realistic sense data and that this simulation might claim to have a Sofia.

If we don't believe it has a Sofia then we cannot escape that the simulation has claimed to have a Sofia based on the actions of a model of the same neurons that our brains are made of. So the reason that the simulation is claiming to have a Sofia must be the reason we claim that we have a Sofia.
 
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This is my point about the human simulation. That we might have a computer that ran a complete simulation of a human brain including realistic sense data and that this simulation might claim to have a Sofia.

If we don't believe it has a Sofia then we cannot escape that the simulation has claimed to have a Sofia based on the actions of a model of the same neurons that our brains are made of. So the reason that the simulation is claiming to have a Sofia must be the reason we claim that we have a Sofia.

If by "simulation" you mean a machine that does everything the human brain does, then it's tautological that it actually does have a Sofia.

If by "simulation" you mean the equivalent of a computer simulation of a space mission, then the output of the simulation (e.g., claiming to have a Sofia) doesn't matter, since claiming to have a Sofia would simply be part of the expected output of the simulation.
 
I don't think there is any doubt that this is what he has said and when questioned closely as to whether that is what he really meant he has responded with confident "yes". I can find links if needs be.
The brain doesn't function strictly as a Turing Machine, of course; it's far too messy. It is however a computer. As such, a Turing Machine can approach its function arbitrarily closely.

Consciousness is the result of the brain functioning as a computer, the combined activity of billions of interconnected neurons. There's no evidence that anything else is needed, and no evidence (pace Roger Penrose) that anything else is possible.

But I have never heard him claim that he does not have a Sofia.
Or whatever you want to call it. I'm frequently accused of either claiming this - contrary to all evidence - or directly of not having it - contrary to all evidence.

I have merely pointed out that consciousness displays no magical properties and requires no magical processes. This seems to upset people.
 
If by "simulation" you mean a machine that does everything the human brain does, then it's tautological that it actually does have a Sofia.

If by "simulation" you mean the equivalent of a computer simulation of a space mission, then the output of the simulation (e.g., claiming to have a Sofia) doesn't matter, since claiming to have a Sofia would simply be part of the expected output of the simulation.
What's the difference?
 
If by "simulation" you mean a machine that does everything the human brain does, then it's tautological that it actually does have a Sofia.
I described the simulation before

The simulation is, as I have said, a detailed simulation of a human brain down to the neuron level. It models the physical interactions of the components of the brain, ie it is how physics says that they should behave. It is running on an instruction set computer so it is unquestionably an algorithm.

But if it is an accurate model of the physical interaction of the components of the brain then it ought to behave as a human does.
If by "simulation" you mean the equivalent of a computer simulation of a space mission, then the output of the simulation (e.g., claiming to have a Sofia) doesn't matter, since claiming to have a Sofia would simply be part of the expected output of the simulation.
If you mean that the programmers have preprogrammed in some behaviours then, no, obviously not possible under the scenario that I proposed. They have programmed in nothing but the physical interactions of the brain components and the sense data.
 
What's the difference?
As far as I can tell, Piggy is suggesting that the programmers cheated and programmed in a behaviour of saying "I have a Sofia". However that is just altering the thought experiment, nothing is programmed in but the physical interactions of the components of the brain and the sense data.
 
I compared brain wave game controllers to a blood pressure trick.

What you are talking about now ("dream recording") does not use the same principles as a brain wave detector. It uses an fMRI, which tracks blood oxidization levels in the brain, not brain wave frequencies.
You misunderstand the principles of what's being monitored. The brain wave game controller uses a low grade MRI, while the dream recorder uses fMRI, where the "f" in fMRI means functional. Why is fMRI functionally the same thing as MRI? Because ideally what you want to measure is neither, but instead the locations of activation of individual neurons on a global scale. Both MRI and fMRI provide this neural activation information statistically on a global scale, such that there is no "functional" difference in the information they provide. That's why fMRI is called (f)MRI, because it is functionally equivalent to MRI. Yet the quality of this information can vary greatly with variations in the sensitivity of the equipment. They are both providing exactly the same fundamental information.

And as far as I can tell it hasn't been very successful in videoing the images you are dreaming.
That's exactly what I noted first when I originally mentioned it, but neither has it been a complete failure. I also explained why some limitations may remain, even if you had exquisite information about every single neural activation throughout the brain. Such an explanation goes to explaining the fine scale randomness of brain structure as discussed here before.
 
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