Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[Beth]

I don't know that I could tell what the majority of any particular community would assume - many would assume that the child is a blank slate, a new page and not wish to heap any baggage on it.

Really? You don't think that a Christian couple with a newborn that the baby is not considered to be the same religion as it's parents by the parent's friends, family and neighbors as well as the church they belong to?

Again, not as far as I know. A child can have legal dual nationalities depending on the various laws of the birth country and the parent's nationality.

True, it does depend on the various laws of the birth country. In my country (U.S.) a child has dual citizenship until the age of 21, when they must choose because the U.S. does not allow dual citizenship for adults.

As I said, I doubt that either of my father's parents would have, for a moment, considered him to be Russian/British. Or anybody else for that matter.

Okay. Whatever nationality his parents considered him to be would take precedence over an assumption made without knowledge of all pertinent details.

I don't think there is any general rule you can apply to something like nationality.

Why not? I'm only talking about children here, not adults. It's generally assumed that a child has the nationality of his/her parents. Babies with French parents are assumed to be French, babies with German parents are assumed to be German, etc. It may be incorrect in some cases - for example, two Mexican immigrants to the U.S. who have a baby here would consider their baby to be U.S. American rather than Mexican, but I think it's reasonable as a general rule and far more likely to be correct than incorrect.

Even if you were to consider "atheist" a religion, it would make no sense whatsoever to call "Christian/atheist" a religion.

Okay. Call it a religious affiliation or heritage then. Or some other term if you prefer.

But the child might be considered African by the parents. He/she might be considered African by the people in the local community.

As I said above, I'd consider the parents opinion to take precedence over any others. But legally, a child born of two U.S. parents is considered an U.S. citizen no matter where they were born and raised, although it might have dual citizenship with the country of birth depending on the laws there.

Again - no general rule. To me the child is a blank slate.

I think we'll just have to disagree on that. I'm not a big fan of the blank slate hypothesis regarding children. I think a great deal of propensity regarding behaviors and personality is innate.

You keep wavering between claiming that your opinion is 'customary' (according to what custom and why the hell do I have to sign up to it?) on the one hand, and on the other simply your opinion.

You don't have to sign up. You're allowed to have a different opinion and no one can force you to follow any customs you don't like. But if other people tend to make assumptions based on that custom, you can't exactly stop them.

If it is the former, then my argument is that unless I have an opinion about Jesus
Christ it is meaningless to call me a Christian. If this is not the case, then what on earth is it that you think 'being a Christian' means?

That's a thread in and of itself and there have been such threads here before. As near as I can tell, there is no definition of what a Christian must be that you can't find exceptions to. If you feel that makes the term meaningless, well, you aren't the only one with that opinion. Nevertheless, there does not appear to be any core requirement for being a christian that some denomination or other doesn't require.

If it is the latter, I have a second argument: possibly one of the few things you do not have a right to in this world is an opinion on my mental state.

How can someone not have a right to whatever thoughts they hold in their head? What other topics do you feel that individuals have no right to hold an opinion on? Further, how could you possibly stop someone from holding an opinion on your mental state?

I am, even before I can articulate it, the final and ultimate authority on this matter. I may, of course, lie abouty state but you don't seem be claiming this - you're telling me (well, my five year old self) that I'm a Christian whether I like it or not, which makes no more sense than claiming I have blue eyes regardlessmof what colour my eyes actually are.

No. I'm not telling your five year old self anything. I'm telling you as an adult that I would have considered your newborn self a Christian if both of your parents were Christian. If a child is old enough to understand those labels and claim one for himself, I would not deny him the right to do so, not even a five year old. I would, however, assume he was of the same religion as his parents until he informed me otherwise.

 

[Sledge]

Primarily because membership in most organizations is for adults. I do believe that children echo their parents' beliefs in all sorts of categories: religion, politics, prejudice, whatever. This lasts varying amounts of time for varying individuals. Babies don't even talk, I don't expect them to express political or organizational opinions.

So why are we calling them Christian or Muslim when we wouldn't call them Conservative or Libertarian? Once again, the argument for religion requires it to be put in a category all of it's own rather than just lumped in with "stuff that people believe."

 

[Beth]

That is what I meant when I said blank slate. Obviously babies are hardwired with whatever stuff humans are hardwired with.

But I meant it was meaningless to say that a baby was a Christian or a Muslim or Rooshian, French, German or Prooshian.

Or an athiest. What started this part of the discussion was the claim that newborn babies were all atheists.

 

[FattyCatty]

That is what I meant when I said blank slate. Obviously babies are hardwired with whatever stuff humans are hardwired with.

But I meant it was meaningless to say that a baby was a Christian or a Muslim or Rooshian, French, German or Prooshian.

And I meant that blank slate didn't allow for the innate characteristics that gave humans a tendency to believe in supernatural things. So we have different definitions of blank slate.

 

[Sledge]

Or an athiest. What started this part of the discussion was the claim that newborn babies were all atheists.

Ok. Which god do newborn babies believe in?

 

[Pup]

So why are we calling them Christian or Muslim when we wouldn't call them Conservative or Libertarian? Once again, the argument for religion requires it to be put in a category all of it's own rather than just lumped in with "stuff that people believe."

One actually sees people do that, in birth announcement threads on various forums with different themes: "a new little Republican is here," "the youngest Reds fan has arrived," and stuff like that.

I always thought (hoped?) it was meant to be humorous, as if the parents were saying, "of course my child will grow up exactly like me, ha ha," when they really mean that they'll be happy and love the child whatever he turns out to be.

Now I'm not so sure.

 

[FattyCatty]

So why are we calling them Christian or Muslim when we wouldn't call them Conservative or Libertarian? Once again, the argument for religion requires it to be put in a category all of it's own rather than just lumped in with "stuff that people believe."

I disagree. We aren't putting religion in a separate category, we just aren't discussing all other categories.

In my schools, even at a young age, there were often polls or discussions when elections were going on. Most children echoed the beliefs of their parents and would be considered (in the U.S.) Republicans or Democrats. Some children self-identify with the label; others don't give the label any thought but echo the opinions; some do neither.

I still remember the Nixon-Kennedy election. I was only 8 but was rabidly anti-Kennedy because my father was. I certainly didn't understand anything about any of it. Most of the other children in my class echoed the opinions of their parents.

 

[Robin]

Really? You don't think that a Christian couple with a newborn that the baby is not considered to be the same religion as it's parents by the parent's friends, family and neighbors as well as the church they belong to?

I would pretty much have to do a survey to find that out. Who knows what the neighbors, the family friends, family etc think?

What is your basis for knowing what the neighbors, family, parent's friends etc think?

The Catholic Church don't seem to think it is a Christian until a priest has mumbled a few words over it and wet it's head. And they don't regard the child as having fully joined the Church until confirmation.

So no, I don't think you can generalise over the matter at all.

I think we'll just have to disagree on that. I'm not a big fan of the blank slate hypothesis regarding children. I think a great deal of propensity regarding behaviors and personality is innate.

As I said before, babies are hardwired with whatever babies are hardwired with. But I don't think they are hardwired with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Frenchness, Australianness or whatever.

If you think otherwise then I am willing to hear arguments.

 

[Robin]

Again, it comes down to definition.

If your definition of atheist is "lacking a belief in God" then newborn babies are atheists.

If your definition stipulates that the person must understand the concept of God then no, they are not atheists.

We are not arguing whether newborn babies can be atheists.

We are arguing about the definition of atheist.

 

[Sledge]

One actually sees people do that, in birth announcement threads on various forums with different themes: "a new little Republican is here," "the youngest Reds fan has arrived," and stuff like that.

I always thought (hoped?) it was meant to be humorous, as if the parents were saying, "of course my child will grow up exactly like me, ha ha," when they really mean that they'll be happy and love the child whatever he turns out to be.

Now I'm not so sure.

I kinda hope people are joking, maybe even making fun of the notion that newborns can have a religion.

I disagree. We aren't putting religion in a separate category, we just aren't discussing all other categories.

In my schools, even at a young age, there were often polls or discussions when elections were going on. Most children echoed the beliefs of their parents and would be considered (in the U.S.) Republicans or Democrats. Some children self-identify with the label; others don't give the label any thought but echo the opinions; some do neither.

I still remember the Nixon-Kennedy election. I was only 8 but was rabidly anti-Kennedy because my father was. I certainly didn't understand anything about any of it. Most of the other children in my class echoed the opinions of their parents.

8 is pretty old to be considered a newborn.

 

[Robin]

I disagree. We aren't putting religion in a separate category, we just aren't discussing all other categories.

In my schools, even at a young age, there were often polls or discussions when elections were going on. Most children echoed the beliefs of their parents and would be considered (in the U.S.) Republicans or Democrats. Some children self-identify with the label; others don't give the label any thought but echo the opinions; some do neither.

I still remember the Nixon-Kennedy election. I was only 8 but was rabidly anti-Kennedy because my father was. I certainly didn't understand anything about any of it. Most of the other children in my class echoed the opinions of their parents.

My parents never expressed a political opinion that I remember until I was a teenager when they were shocked to learn that I supported the Labor party.

I wonder how they thought I would inherit their political persuasion.

 

[FattyCatty]

I kinda hope people are joking, maybe even making fun of the notion that newborns can have a religion.

I agree babies can't have a religion. Nor can they be atheists. They don't yet understand these concepts. What they do have is an innate tendency to believe in myths, legends, and supernatural beings (when they are old enough to believe).

8 is pretty old to be considered a newborn.

I was referring back to this quote, which does mention children. As I'm sure you realized.

Primarily because membership in most organizations is for adults. I do believe that children echo their parents' beliefs in all sorts of categories: religion, politics, prejudice, whatever. This lasts varying amounts of time for varying individuals. Babies don't even talk, I don't expect them to express political or organizational opinions.

So why are we calling them Christian or Muslim when we wouldn't call them Conservative or Libertarian? Once again, the argument for religion requires it to be put in a category all of it's own rather than just lumped in with "stuff that people believe."

 

[FattyCatty]

My parents never expressed a political opinion that I remember until I was a teenager when they were shocked to learn that I supported the Labor party.

I wonder how they thought I would inherit their political persuasion.

I don't mean they were actively trying to indoctrinate you. But, living in a family, it's hard not to hear conversations, discussions, comments on the newspaper, radio, and television. These things are absorbed by children and influence what they think. And if you claim these kind of things never happened in your family, from the time you were born until you were a teenager, I cry ECREE.

 

[Piscivore]

Or an athiest. What started this part of the discussion was the claim that newborn babies were all atheists.

Would it clarify things for you if it was phrased "newborn babies were all without belief in god"?

 

[Sledge]

I agree babies can't have a religion. Nor can they be atheists. They don't yet understand these concepts. What they do have is an innate tendency to believe in myths, legends, and supernatural beings (when they are old enough to believe).

Fine. So tell me what god/s newborn babies believe in.

I was referring back to this quote, which does mention children. As I'm sure you realized.

No, I didn't realise. But I appreciate your assuming what I think. The approach has worked so well for others in this thread, I can see why you'd want to emulate it.

 

[Robin]

I don't mean they were actively trying to indoctrinate you. But, living in a family, it's hard not to hear conversations, discussions, comments on the newspaper, radio, and television. These things are absorbed by children and influence what they think. And if you claim these kind of things never happened in your family, from the time you were born until you were a teenager, I cry ECREE.

What does ECREE mean? Presumably it means you are calling me a liar.

 

[Robin]

I don't mean they were actively trying to indoctrinate you. But, living in a family, it's hard not to hear conversations, discussions, comments on the newspaper, radio, and television. These things are absorbed by children and influence what they think. And if you claim these kind of things never happened in your family, from the time you were born until you were a teenager, I cry ECREE.

Oh, I see.

Well you appear to think that all families are like your own. Not all families vocalise their political affiliations and opinions. Some families don't care, for others the belief is so deeply ingrained that it goes without saying.

And in fact you have an extraordinary claim of your own. That when you were 8 years old your father had control of which channel to watch. ECREE right back at you.

 

[FattyCatty]

Fine. So tell me what god/s newborn babies believe in.

I don't think newborn babies work in concepts such as "believe" yet. They're processing information and learning their world.

No, I didn't realise. But I appreciate your assuming what I think. The approach has worked so well for others in this thread, I can see why you'd want to emulate it.

I wasn't assuming what you think. I was assuming you had read the thread.

 

[Christian]

I think you will find there are a number of people well versed in the subject of statistics and experiment design. And you will also find that there are many here who are well versed in the matter of how the brain works.

So I think you can skip the groundwork and foundations and present your experimental design straight away.

You seem not to be paying attention. It is a matter of definition. If someone defines an atheist as someone who lacks a belief in God or gods then a baby is by definition an atheist. If you define an atheist (as I do) as someone who, if they understood the question 'Do you believe in God, or in gods?' and answered it truthfully, would not answer 'yes'. Under that definition a baby is not an atheist.

By the way, an average two year old is way, way beyond object permanence. Did you mean months?

Yes, sorry 1 year old's.

Ok, if what you say is true (that most here are well versed in the said subjects), why is it that some posters here don't get that the definition that includes newborns and infants is useless for cognitive experimental design?

 

[Sledge]

I don't think newborn babies work in concepts such as "believe" yet. They're processing information and learning their world.

So we agree that newborn babies don't believe in gods. Now what's the word for that again?

I wasn't assuming what you think. I was assuming you had read the thread.

Your assumptions don't really interest me. You goofed. Deal with it and move on.