Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[Myriad]

Sounds like skillfully constructed and delightfully irreverent literature. I take it Tepper's not seriously arguing that her scenarios are a goal to pursue as written, though.

I'm not so sure. The ones I've read all have fantasy elements that rule out the possibility of pursuing the scenario as a deliberate goal. (How would one go about deliberately getting aliens to intervene, or causing a sudden worldwide genetic mutation event that makes all the animals intelligent and able to speak?). However, the wishful nature of the scenarios (for instance, when the animals become intelligent, the few remaining humans voluntarily, as penance for their collective guilt, give up speech and all tool use, to become the only dumb draft animals in the world) leaves me little doubt that Ms. Tepper would greatly prefer me, along with six billion or so others, to be dead, and enjoys telling me so in her marvelously crafted novels.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

What, they shouldn't be given their land back?

Whom exactly should be given which land, by who? Would this solve every one of the 30K daily deaths you mention?

You once again display a simplified and romantic view of the world's problems and how to solve them. That's all I was saying.

It's either that or extinction. I prefer the former.

And I'm merely pointing out that you prefer it so much that you sit here and revel in wishing for it in stead of working to mitigate the misery it would generate.

I'm not sure you really understand what I was saying...

Do you think sociopath is an objective term, that crosses all cultures and moral systems?

No, of course not. No word is ever "objective". Comes with the territory.

What I am saying, though, is that you don't get to weasel out of your horrid and inhuman views on that account. Maybe you can posit some cultural framework where casually wishing death upon the people you're conversing with is morally OK, but you'd be hard pressed to find it instantiated anywhere but your own head.

When I'm calling your views sociopathic, I do so from a frame of reference firmly rooted in my culture and values. It shouldn't be necessary to point this out, as every opinion and value judgement anyone says, ever, including you and including statements beginning with "It'll probable be good if..." - is subject to the same disclaimer.

So, do you want us to stop using language?

I don't think I ever said that.

What you said is close enough that my point stands. Look, here it is:

Kill us all? Nah, though it'll probably be good if there's a die off in the works.

This, coupled with the arbitrary but large percentages you keep throwing about, makes it reasonable for anyone reading you to conclude that you think "it'll probably be good" if they personally died.

You see, for a death toll such as the mentioned 90%, chances are anyone you're talking to would be in the "dead" category after your sadistic fantasy had played out.

Why evil?

Because you actively want some arbitrary but large percentage of the world's population to die horribly, and the surviviors to have a miserable agrarian existence, and even argue that the right response is to abandon our best tools for mitigating the resulting misery. You are a proponent of human misery in wishing for this to happen.

Hence, evil.

 

[PixyMisa]

What do you mean "as a whole"?

As a thing in itself, rather than merely the sum of its constituent parts; society qua society.

 

[PixyMisa]

You mean playing whack-a-mole for 18 pages isn't listening?

Not when one is the mole.

 

[PixyMisa]

I'm not so sure. The ones I've read all have fantasy elements that rule out the possibility of pursuing the scenario as a deliberate goal. (How would one go about deliberately getting aliens to intervene, or causing a sudden worldwide genetic mutation event that makes all the animals intelligent and able to speak?). However, the wishful nature of the scenarios (for instance, when the animals become intelligent, the few remaining humans voluntarily, as penance for their collective guilt, give up speech and all tool use, to become the only dumb draft animals in the world) leaves me little doubt that Ms. Tepper would greatly prefer me, along with six billion or so others, to be dead, and enjoys telling me so in her marvelously crafted novels.

I think I'll continue re-reading Excession, thanks.

 

[PixyMisa]

THERE'S A NEW CULTURE NOVEL OUT THIS WEEK!!!!!!!

We now return you to your previously scheduled drivel.

 

[Mashuna]

THERE'S A NEW CULTURE NOVEL OUT THIS WEEK!!!!!!!

We now return you to your previously scheduled drivel.

Just finished it.

{/end derail}

 

[TFian]

THERE'S A NEW CULTURE NOVEL OUT THIS WEEK!!!!!!!

We now return you to your previously scheduled drivel.

Hmm, well Excession was a good book after all...

 

[TFian]

Whom exactly should be given which land, by who? Would this solve every one of the 30K daily deaths you mention?

I was speaking of the third world. But I'm not really sure anymore. I think in general, they're a problem that will probably have to be dealt with differently.

You once again display a simplified and romantic view of the world's problems and how to solve them. That's all I was saying.

I don't think there's anything romantic in what I'm suggesting. It'll be cruel, and hard to live with, but I think necessary.

And I'm merely pointing out that you prefer it so much that you sit here and revel in wishing for it in stead of working to mitigate the misery it would generate.

I think we can mitigate it, if we initiate the die off, instead of Mother Earth.

No, of course not. No word is ever "objective". Comes with the territory.

Agreed there.

What I am saying, though, is that you don't get to weasel out of your horrid and inhuman views on that account

I'm not trying to weasel out of anything.

Maybe you can posit some cultural framework where casually wishing death upon the people you're conversing with is morally OK, but you'd be hard pressed to find it instantiated anywhere but your own head.

I'm not wishing for anyone's death here. I'm not sure what you mean?

When I'm calling your views sociopathic, I do so from a frame of reference firmly rooted in my culture and values

I don't live in Sweden though..

So, do you want us to stop using language?

No of course not, though John Zerzan certainly has some good points on language.

This, coupled with the arbitrary but large percentages you keep throwing about, makes it reasonable for anyone reading you to conclude that you think "it'll probably be good" if they personally died.

Well it's nothing personal, but would I lose sleep if you ended up dying in such an event? I can't say I would, not out of any personal malice, just because if it happens, it happens.

You see, for a death toll such as the mentioned 90%, chances are anyone you're talking to would be in the "dead" category after your sadistic fantasy had played out.

Yes, I know. I probably will too. It doesn't bother me though.

Because you actively want some arbitrary but large percentage of the world's population to die horribly, and the surviviors to have a miserable agrarian existence, and even argue that the right response is to abandon our best tools for mitigating the resulting misery. You are a proponent of human misery in wishing for this to happen.

Hence, evil.

I don't think an agrarian existence has to be miserable though. It could be better in fact. But I don't think we have to go back that far, if we kill off most of humanity, then we'd have a lot more energy to spare, and we could probably maintain a relatively advanced civilization then.

 

[excaza]

I don't think an agrarian existence has to be miserable though. It could be better in fact.

Go live one. Let us know what you think.

 

[TFian]

Go live one. Let us know what you think.

Sure, any suggestions?

 

[excaza]

Buy a big plot of land, some animals, get rid of all your clothing (can't have any of those pesky man-made materials), electronics, your house (gotta build a new one by hand!), get rid of your electricity, your running water (wells or streams only!). That should be a good start.

Lots of stuff to do, get moving!

 

[TFian]

Buy a big plot of land, some animals, get rid of all your clothing (can't have any of those pesky man-made materials), electronics, your house (gotta build a new one by hand!), get rid of your electricity, your running water (wells or streams only!). That should be a good start.

Lots of stuff to do, get moving!

Clothing is unavailable to agrarians? I think the Amish disagree.

I don't think I could build a house on my own. Can't I buy some slaves to do it for me?

 

[PixyMisa]

You died of dysentery.

Would you like to play again?

 

[excaza]

Clothing is unavailable to agrarians? I think the Amish disagree.

The majority of the clothing you currently own is manufactured using machines and synthetic materials. You're going to have to make your own clothes.

 

[TFian]

You died of dysentery.

Would you like to play again?

Yes plz. Do I have any extra lives? A one up maybe..?

 

[Mashuna]

I'm not wishing for anyone's death here. I'm not sure what you mean?

Well, posts like this:

Well I'm not "hoping" for anything, but again, I find it inevitable. I'm less sure now though it'll be from solely natural causes. I'm thinking humans could adapt around it with policies like eliminating burdensome and unfit humans, and using the military to curtail unsustainable population growth in the third world.

And this:

I think we can mitigate it, if we initiate the die off, instead of Mother Earth.

both kind of make it look like you're wishing for deaths. I mean, you've moved from claiming there'd be a huge number of deaths due to some random claims you've made, to advocating killing people off.

Hold still sir, this is for your own good <BANG>

 

[TFian]

The majority of the clothing you currently own is manufactured using machines and synthetic materials. You're going to have to make your own clothes.

Why do I have to make my own clothes though?

 

[TFian]

Well, posts like this:
And this:

I think you misunderstand. I'm not wishing for anyone here to personally die. If you all die, or all live, makes no difference to me.

both kind of make it look like you're wishing for deaths.

Sure, but not yours personally, just people in general.

I mean, you've moved from claiming there'd be a huge number of deaths due to some random claims you've made, to advocating killing people off.

Hold still sir, this is for your own good <BANG>

I think there'll be a lot less death in the developed world than say, the third world. In the first world, it'll just be the burdensome and unfit humans that are killed.

 

[PixyMisa]

Sure, but not yours personally, just people in general.

That's what sociopath means.