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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I don't think I can remember this theory of yours from previous posts (apologies). If the kitchen knife never left Sollecito's apartment, how did Meredith's DNA come to be on the blade? Presumably you'd argue that the DNA finding was either due to contamination or secondary transfer of some kind? And if the kitchen knife wasn't involved, what knife (or knives) were the murder weapons?

I don't Meredith's DNA is on it at all, but the important thing is that RS did. As for the murder weapon, there is no way to know for certain what kind of knife it was as it was never recovered but I would guess it was dumped somewhere near Meredith's phones.
 
According to your quote: "Persuaded false confessions occur when police interrogation tactics cause an innocent suspect to doubt his memory and become temporarily persuaded that it is more likely than not that he committed the crime of which he is being accused, despite the fact that he has no memory or actual knowledge of committing it."

Again, Amanda never, ever in any way, shape or form said or suggested that she, herself committed the crime. There is NO false confession in this case, just a false accusation.

What she confessed to were incriminating enough for the ILE to arrest her.

Please review some of the papers Rose and I linked and quoted recently. Hopefully you'll note a connection between the circumstances and substance of Amanda's statement and the mechanism of internalized false confession.
 
Yes, I think he undoubtedly stepped in blood during the assault. So if his shoes were bloody, did he then remove them before he went to the bathroom for towels?

I wouldn't agree that he undoubtedly stepped in blood during the actual assault (including the stabbings). If most of the wounds were inflicted on the front of the neck from behind, the blood spatter would have gone sideways or forward, and not backwards towards the assailant's feet. If he had blood on his trousers, it could have got there during the sexual assault phase (the majority of which I believe happened after the fatal wounds were inflicted), but even then his feet would have been fairly close to the wall and away from the pooling blood.

If he searched her bedside drawer after the assault, with his shoes already bloody, there should be bloody shoeprints on the floor in front of the bedside table and most likely bloody fingerprints on the drawer itself. Were his shoeprints and fingerprints found here? I know there was one toward the end of her bed by the doorway but haven't heard they were also by the bedside table.

I was only pointing these things out to illustrate that Guede might have had to move around the room, rather than go straight to and from the bed. It's entirely possible that Guede's final act was to reposition and cover Meredith's body, in the course of which he stepped in some of the blood pooling around her body.
I agree about the blood on trousers but I also think that after the attack, if Rudy had gone to the small bathroom, there would have been a trail of bloody footprints showing this. After all, he supposedly straddled Meredith from behind while she was on her knees, and stabbed her in the throat three times likely while she struggled at least a little. His feet would likely have changed position more than once while restraining her and likely have come in contact with the blood. His trail of bloody footprints show him going straight out the front door. It doesn't seem possible that he could have avoided stepping in blood during the attack, therefore not leaving a trail heading to the bathroom and back, yet he steps in it while he returns to look for the keys. Does this ring true for you?

See above for why it was unlikely that blood would have been on the floor where Guede was standing while he stabbed Meredith. In addition, the bloody shoeprints leading out towards the front door were clearly made by stepping in a pool of blood, rather than treading in blood spatter. Therefore, by definition, Meredith must have been dead or very nearly dead if enough blood had left her body to form such a blood pooling. Ergo: Guede didn't step in Meredith's blood during the attack proper - he must have stepped in the pooled blood some time after the attack.
 
Ah, ok I think you're right about that. So the question becomes why didn't he flush the toilet? Also, why didn't Amanda flush the toilet when she says she saw it on the morning after the murder? Everyone who has lived with another person (family, roommates, lovers, etc.) has a one time or another come across an unflushed toilet. Hey, it happens. Who doesn't flush when you see it?

Haven't you asked these very same questions previously in this very same thread? Also, the very same questions about Rudy and Filomena's room? Also, a few others that you have asked over the past few pages?

Maybe I am getting a false ECHO and I am clearly too lazy (or simply not inclined) to go look for exactly when you asked them before and the answers (several) you were given by other posters.

I'm pretty certain my memory is functioning adequately though, as I may not make many contributions to the thread but I most certainly pay attention. :)
 
lane99,
...So, it appears you are purposely attributing false statements to another poster, misquoting as mean of provocation. You lie more than once...

After the remark quoted, I've only skimmed your rambling and boorish comments. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, I won't waste my time.

At any rate, the record now shows that even proof that both of them were not at the cottage when the murder occured would still not be enough for you to concede that Knox and the boyfriend likely are not guilty of it.

That is hardly the only, but merely another, example of your dogmatic and doctrinaire view of this case.
 
I meant of course all the information that is available. If you have some hidden information please share. If you simply believe that the court had some undisclosed information that decisively indicates guilt, than this discussion is futile, because you cannot provide that information, so it is like discussing God's existence.

Then if you have the same information as I do, I see it as indicating guilt (to a lesser degree with Amanda). Yes, much of the evidence is circumstantial but take the Scott Peterson case for example. He was convicted on almost all circumstantial evidence but I don't think anyone seriously thinks he is innocent.

That's food for thought :)
I see that we agree that the court made an error.

I think the mistake was that Amanda should have been charged with being an accessory after the fact and tampering with evidence. The next question logically is: Why would she cover up for a near stranger (Rudy) and a guy she was having sex with for a week? I honestly think she never believed she would ever be convicted. Better to get off free than to face even a short prison term for being midly envolved.

Too bad for her. If she had just confessed to her involvement, with time served and good behavior she might have been home by now.
 
I wouldn't agree that he undoubtedly stepped in blood during the actual assault (including the stabbings). If most of the wounds were inflicted on the front of the neck from behind, the blood spatter would have gone sideways or forward, and not backwards towards the assailant's feet.

If you're correctly then it's entirely possible that AK and RS could have been in the room too and also not leave bloody footprints leaving that room. If Rudy could do it so could they.
 
If you're correctly then it's entirely possible that AK and RS could have been in the room too and also not leave bloody footprints leaving that room. If Rudy could do it so could they.

If they were both also behind Meredith, then yes. But I don't think it would be possible for all three people involved in a joint assault to position themselves behind the victim.

In addition, I believe that it would have been impossible for Knox and Sollecito to have been involved in the stabbing and not have got a significant amount of blood on their own bodies and clothes. Yet it's never been established that they either washed of disposed of any of their clothes - and indeed a sweater that the police became convinced was worn by Knox during the attack and then disposed of (due to bloodstains, presumably) actually turned up in Knox's room, completely free of blood. I think that the prosecution (and Massei) try to deal with this problem by proposing that Knox and Sollecito were both naked during the assault and stabbing!!
 
To all,

I found some quotes in Barni et al., Talanta 72 (2007) 896–913. This paper is linked at the Friends of Amanda web site, and I have discussed it previously.

“The most problematic chemicals for a correct interpretation of luminol test results are those which provoke intensification or a generation of a chemiluminescence emission even if blood is not present, leading to false-positive results. Due to the possible presence of these substances at the crime scene, the luminol test must not be considered sufficiently specific to permit an unequivocal identification of blood [15,18,51,88,89].

Those compounds which generate luminol chemiluminescence, or enhance the luminol emission in the presence of bloodstains can be divide into three major categories (Fig. 13):

1. compounds showing a catalytic true peroxidase or peroxidase-like activity;
2. compounds with a high oxidizing capacity towards luminol;
3. compounds with a complex chemical composition with an undefined action mechanism towards luminol mixture.

The first group encompasses inorganic or bioinorganic species and undoubtedly is the major source of luminol interferences as these compounds often show excellent catalyzing properties in redox reactions such as that involving luminol oxidation and are widely distributed in the environment and in plants. In general three main types may be characterized in this group: free metal ions, in most cases included in inorganic compounds such as rust or soils; biological complexes between metal ions and organic components (such as metal–porphyrins, and including bacterial or plant pigments) often within protein structures; enzymes belonging to the oxidoreductases class such as horseradish-peroxidases.” (emphasis added)

SNIP

“Generally visual examination is used when the luminol test is employed in a forensic situation, rather than instrumental detection of the luminescence. An experienced practitioner may
distinguish the true blood-catalyzed chemiluminescence from that produced by other substances by the evaluation of parameters observable to the naked eye such as emission intensity,
duration and spatial distribution. However this approach may also lead to misinterpretation, due to a subjective, informal and non-quantitative evaluation, for example, because its intensity is
qualitatively much weaker than that expected for blood. In other circumstances an emission of similar intensity may be thought to derive from diluted bloodstains and is accepted. Therefore,
caution should be exercised when using the test. Any confusion which may arise over a stain can usually be resolved by an intelligent observation and, if necessary, by further testing [73], for example, by using a different presumptive test for blood, such as the immunochromatographic test for the confirmation of human blood presence Hexagon OBTI (Human GmbH, Wiesbaden, Germany) [137].”

I doubt presumptivity is a word (yet), but perhaps Lewis Carroll would be amused. It is intended to differentiate between whether a test is presumptive or conclusive.

Thanks for this, Chris. Some of the stuff I have looked at shows that Luminol can also react to certain types of oil based paints (were any of them taking an art class?) and varnishes as well as different surfaces, including some tiles. Sometimes I think that they just don't know what chemical in some of these things is causing the reaction.

That no blood showed up in the tests of any of these revealed by Luminol footprints just makes no sense to me if they were made from blood. The blob in Filomena's room is the only one that would seem to me to be remotely looking like it was possibly cleaned.

The fact that Meredith's DNA is not showing up in the majority of these prints is also a good point.
 
I have a couple of questions that I have not seen addressed anywhere. Please forgive me if they have been discussed and I missed the discussion.

1) In re-reviewing the photographs on PMF, there is one of the duvet with a blood stain that looks like a partial bare footprint. Has anyone else seen that? I do not know how to post a picture here but it is the one with a timestamp of 2:03:52 and it is on the right-hand side of the blanket.

2) Again, in looking at the pictures, the one of the sink in the bathroom after luminol was applied looks like a bloody mess. I believe I read somewhere it was not all blood. Does anyone know how much of it is blood? My thinking is if it was mostly all blood, where was the corresponding blood on the floor? The sink looks like there are blood drips all down the sides. I think if there was not visible blood all over that floor someone had to have cleaned it all up.

3) I am interested in knowing what you think are the 2 or 3 best pieces of evidence for the other side of the argument (e.g. if you are convinced of guilt, what 2-3 things indicates possible innocence and the other way around.)

Also, Alt-F4 - Mary H. actually answered the flushing question with what I thought was a really good answer. In Italy, you are expected to clean up the toilet bowl after yourself. Amanda had been reminded of this by her roommate as she did not always comply. Perhaps she didn't want to deal with that, although I do think she should have at least flushed the %#@! (literally).
 
I was only pointing these things out to illustrate that Guede might have had to move around the room, rather than go straight to and from the bed. It's entirely possible that Guede's final act was to reposition and cover Meredith's body, in the course of which he stepped in some of the blood pooling around her body.

The prints on the pillow were so faint that some avoided detection by the ILE. Only professor Vinci detected many with his CrimeScope apparatus. That's why I think the path of prints leading outside originates from another stepping in blood then the prints on the pillowcase.
 
review article on forensic analysis of body fluids

Analysis of body fluids for forensic purposes: From laboratory testing
to non-destructive rapid confirmatory identification at a crime scene
Kelly Virkler, Igor K. Lednev *
Department of Chemistry, University at Albany, SUNY,

Forensic Science International 188 (2009) 1–17

There is some discussion of confirmatory tests for blood, including immunochemical techniques. There is also a discussion of semen.
 
3) I am interested in knowing what you think are the 2 or 3 best pieces of evidence for the other side of the argument (e.g. if you are convinced of guilt, what 2-3 things indicates possible innocence and the other way around.)

(literally).

I am interested in knowing this as well but I think it is a question that will get few responses. I have said before the question of the break-in was one that troubled me and I never felt it had been properly addressed from those on the side of innocence. The recent articles by Hendry and Waterbury, dispell many of the doubts that I had on this one.

The other thing that stood out for me when I was leaning towards guilt was Amanda's E-mail to everyone, which shot up a lot of red flags as far as I was concerned.

I also believed that the odds were stacked against all this stuff just happening to fall into place against Amanda and Raffaele, it seemed that it was just too much for mere coincidence. The "mountain" looked pretty big at that point and it looks like a sink hole to me now.
 
Item 177

Update: it is not DNA, it is luminol results. Here is the link:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1469

PDiGirolamo,

This is a DNA electropherogram of a luminol positive result, which I believe comes from Filomena's room. If you look at the electropherogram, you will see Meredith's profile and at least some of Amanda's profile. I have not done a careful inventory of all of the visible alleles, but I think that both profiles are close to being complete.

The interpretation of this piece of evidence is not easy. Unless a positive confirmatory test were done, one should not conclude that it is blood. As one looks at the profiles from left to right, one sees that the peaks are a little shorter for the long pieces of DNA than for the shorter pieces of DNA. This suggests that some degradation of the DNA has taken place. One wishes very much that the forensics team had done something akin to substrate controls. They should have sampled outside of the luminol-positive area.
 
That is interesting because it is the 'mountain' for me and it is the 'mountain' you see evidenced quite frequently here.

I think the email and the behavior are less so for me because I have a 23 year old and a 21 year old and I know full well how the world (still) revolves around them. As a good friend's psychiatrist recently told her, "Their brains aren't fully cooked until sometime after age 25." I guess I am more forgiving of the behavior as a whole, including writings, because of my own children and their friends. I believe Amanda was largely driven by the attention of it all and I even think her email is written from a perspective of wanting to be a major part of the story.
 
That is interesting because it is the 'mountain' for me and it is the 'mountain' you see evidenced quite frequently here.

I think the email and the behavior are less so for me because I have a 23 year old and a 21 year old and I know full well how the world (still) revolves around them. As a good friend's psychiatrist recently told her, "Their brains aren't fully cooked until sometime after age 25." I guess I am more forgiving of the behavior as a whole, including writings, because of my own children and their friends. I believe Amanda was largely driven by the attention of it all and I even think her email is written from a perspective of wanting to be a major part of the story.

That is an interesting theory on the e-mail. I had done an analysis of it when I was on the guilty side and could not get past the importance she put on that pesky mop. Still don't quite get that one even today.
 
the magic mountain

3) I am interested in knowing what you think are the 2 or 3 best pieces of evidence for the other side of the argument (e.g. if you are convinced of guilt, what 2-3 things indicates possible innocence and the other way around.)

PDiGirolamo,

I am 100% convinced that AK and RS are innocent, and don't think any of the evidence against them is very good. However, I can name two or perhaps three pieces that are at least puzzling, the bra clasp and sample 177, the mixed DNA from Filomena's room. The third one might be the luminol footprints. Everyone knows my position on the bra clasp. I strongly suspect the explanations for the latter two items are innocent, meaning that they are unrelated to the crime. However, I do not know the exact mechanism for how they got there.

post script

Some have suggested that the presence of mixed DNA samples is poor glove or swabbing technique on the part of the forensic team. I think this is a plausible suggestion.
 
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Odeed,

One of the three mixed AK/RS DNA samples was left in the bedroom, but one was in the bathroom and the third was on a rubber glove. Sample 96 yielded Amanda's profile alone. In reading your comments, I get the impression that you (might) believe that (a) mixed DNA samples indicate that the DNA was deposited at the same time, and (b) only saliva and other fluids give rise to facile or large transfers of DNA. If you believe otherwise, please feel free to state.

a) I never said they were deposited at the same time, I gave a reason why Knox and Sollecito DNA was found in the flat which wouldn't require LCN profiling.

b) Saliva and other fluids deposit large quantities which could be transferred.

Because DNA cannot be dated, I see no way to conclude that a mixed profile must necessarily mean that the deposition time was the same. To the contrary, every mixed profile generated by the contamination of an evidence sample by a laboratory worker must by definition arise at two separate times. Such contamination events do not seem to be uncommon, based on the reference I gave to an article by William Thompson about a month ago.

With respect to DNA deposited during strangulation, I do not think that saliva was involved in any study I have cited on this thread. My comment earlier today on leaving DNA on everyday items was intended to bolster the notion that touch DNA is left easily.

Did you look over the paper on simulated strangulation?

G.N. Rutty, Int J Legal Med (2002) 116 :170–173

IIRC, Rutty noted third party DNA in his results, he followed it with a paper in 2008 examining the effects of saliva in obtaining profiles. If you want to be ignorant about a subject which you originally started on this thread, which you then posted on your blog with references to the 2002 and 2008 paper, then that's your choice.

Given both the locations of the profiles and the considerations above, I do not believe that the mixed samples at Raffaele’s flat can be definitively linked to intimate acts (though I cannot rule them out). My conclusion is that the samples were likely deposited in mundane ways.

If by mundane ways you mean brushing her teeth, having a shower, sharing the gloves etc, then I agree, but I would put it as possible as sex being a reason.

Let me conclude with a comment on the mixed AK/MK DNA samples. The forensic team appears to have focused on bloody items, clothing, and a few unusual items such as a gummy white residue. It seems quite unlikely that the sample collection in this case would constitute a random sampling the flat for DNA. Therefore, trying to draw conclusions about how likely it is for DNA to be deposited casually based on this case is an unwise course, IMO.

The only list I have seen for DNA samples taken, was over on the F.O.A. site which lists only 50/60 of 184 samples, I assume you have seen the full list?

This is why I believe that the mixed samples in the two girls’ bathroom are not inculpatory. Amanda’s epithelial cells (from her hands or her gums), spittle, and possibly hair would be found there.

But that would not explain the mixed sample in Filomena's room, and also the lack of any DNA from Filomena and Laura, unless the list above includes DNA from unknown females, and reference samples may not have been needed if all the DNA profiles could be attributed to the victim and the three convicted.
 
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