Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[odeed]

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2010/03/lcn-dna-part-ii-watch-where-you-sneeze.html

And from my post this morning:


Amanda's appeal




Looks to me like she just turned up the "volume".

That last quote may indicate she also did what you suggest, which would make her results even more suspect, I would suspect.

Just to follow up on my previous post, the details of the testing of the knife I read (a while ago now) from Massei report translation, the discussion is spread out over 100+ pages, specific citations from pg 255, defense expert Dr. Gino:

It did, however, emerge from the documentation that some of the samples taken from Exhibit 36 were quantified with the Qubit fluorometer, and that the results for some of them were "too low". Thus the quantity was inferior to the base value (or threshold setting) of the kit; it could even have been equal to zero. This result, she asserted, should have led to cessation of the analysis.

Qubit fluorometer^WP, as the wiki mentions, "uses fluorescent dyes to determine the concentration of nucleic acids and proteins in a sample", from what I gather this was machine which was tweaked because of the "too low" results.

Pg 258, of the report:

Returning to Exhibit 36, she specified that she had focused on trace B and not on
trace A and the profile which emerged from it.

She stated that in the hearing before the GUP, Dr. Stefanoni had spoken of a quantity equal to a few hundred picograms; from later documentation it appeared that in fact, it was a quantity labelled "too low", and, she observed, such a quantity cannot amount to a few hundred picograms (page 88). However, it appeared to her that, Dr. Stefanoni (again, before GUP) specified that she had performed the PCR at 28 cycles; in fact, she recalled that she had been asked why "if it was a case of a low copy number sample, she had not amplified it with more than 28 cycles, as usually suggested in the guidelines" (page 88).

PCR amplification of 28 cycles is the standard amplification, so even though the amount of DNA was LCN, the DNA profile was not extracted through extra amplifications associated with "LCN testing" method, so any contamination would of shown up in subsequent standard tests.

 

[Mary_H]

They actually did test other knives in the drawer; none had any evidence of the victim's DNA.

Not according to the motivations:

"The knife was taken by Inspector Finzi, who testified that he had clean, new gloves and that, having opened the drawer where the tableware was kept, the first thing he saw was a large knife that was extremely clean. There were other knives in the drawer, but he took [only] this one, which became Exhibit 36." (page 106)

Also in case it escaped your attention, the police officers at the scene said clearly there was a strong smell of bleach coming from the apartment.

It was established that Raffaele's housekeeper used a non-bleach cleaner in his apartment. Although, if you want to claim the knife was cleaned with bleach, that's fine with me.

The knife in question drew their attention as it looked like it had been vigorously scrubbed.

Well, "clean," not scrubbed. Although why a gigantic, clean kitchen knife would raise officers' suspicions, I don't know.

"He remembered the terms following the first action that he reported at the time: "I was with my back to the door; there was the dishware drawer; I opened it. I opened the top cutlery drawer ... we had clean gloves on, new. The first thing [99] I saw was a big knife. Let me state beforehand that it was extremely clean‛."

Motivations, page 106

As for Mr. Moore, nothing in his background qualifies him to make any grand declarations regarding forensic scientific evidence.

"In my career, I have worked closely with the Indonesian National Police (INP), the Pakistan Rangers, the Sindh Police (Karachi, Pakistan), the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) of the Philippines, the Philippine National Police (PNP), the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBP) and various police agencies in Greece, Thailand, and other countries. I have lectured on investigative techniques and terrorism at the International Law Enforcement Academy (ILEA) in Bangkok, the Pacific Training Institute in Angeles City, Philippines and Honolulu, and terrorism conferences throughout the US and other countries. I have taught officers from such diverse countries as the People’s Republic of China, Bermuda, Brunei, Taiwan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka. I also served as a (term) Legal Attaché at a U.S. Consulate overseas. I do not look down at foreign police forces. I appreciate the differences in our approaches, but what is never different between our agencies is the reliance on logic, reason and credible evidence...

"...I have spent years participating in prosecutions; two years on one death-penalty trial alone. There are several people who will die in prison, in part because of investigations that I have conducted and testified to. I have received four awards from the United States Attorney’s Office for excellence in investigation. I was nominated in 2002 for the FBI’s top award for Terrorism Investigations. I am educated in the art of evaluating evidence and testimony....”

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI4.html

What more do you require?

 

[Withnail1969]

Excuse me - how do you know the price of this knife or how much it has cost in Euro?
Thanks!

The knife was recognised by Frank on Perugia Shock as being the cheapest most common brand of kitchen knife available in Italy - absolute junk, typical of what one might find in a rented apartment. I believe the brand name was something like 'Moretti' or 'Maretti' but I could be wrong. I believe he mentioned this knife costs only $3 or $4.

 

[Mary_H]

They went looking for a larger knife because the smaller knife was not a match for all the wounds.

They found the larger knife on November 6th. On November 9th, Judge Claudia Matteini said the murder had been committed with a small knife. I'm not sure the autopsy was even finalized by that time.

The fact is, we don't know why they went looking for a larger knife on November 6th. With the information we have, it's almost inexplicable.

And incidentally, yes Raffaelo DID say that maybe he had pricked Meredith with the knife while cooking.

As it turned out she had never been to his apt.

How do you account for that lie?
More coercion perhaps.

I didn't deny he said it. Reread my post.

 

[Mary_H]

Who knows WHEN the knife was vigorously scrubbed?

And perhaps RS and AK did not share your airing out habit.
That or it had been scrubbed shortly before the police swept in.

Amanda and Raffaele had no reason to expect the police to sweep in. If they had, they would not have kept the murder weapon on display in the kitchen drawer.

 

[Mary_H]

How does one "coax a positive result" in DNA testing?

One lies.

 

[Mary_H]

Sorry, the conviction would have been secured even without the double DNA knife.

Please explain.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

please provide sources

I read your citation and there was NO mention of the police officer AMENDING that there was NOT a strong smell of bleach.

Which citations do you want me to help you with?

loverofzion,

The defense made the suggestion that since the flat was recently cleaned with lysoform, this is what caused the odor. See page 212 of Murder in Italy. On the other hand, I am unaware of any evidence that the flat actually was cleaned with bleach. Given that the amount of bleach in the flat had stayed the same for several months, IIRC, I doubt that it was. Whether Finzi acknowledged his error or not, I am not certain.

You have posted over 200 comments here. I do not recall a single one with a citation of the primary literature or even a citation of a contemporaneous news report or a page number in a book. Are you capable of providing citations for any of your 200 comments? I would like you to document all of them.

 

[Mary_H]

I read your citation and there was NO mention of the police officer AMENDING that there was NOT a strong smell of bleach.

Which citations do you want me to help you with?

Can you back up what the polite poster has ever posted that would deserve from you such a snide question?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

John Kennedy Toole was Swift

I don't claim a deliberate conspiracy.

I agree. I think it was more of a Confederacy of Dunces.

 

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by Mary_H View Post

I don't claim a deliberate conspiracy.

I agree. I think it was more of a Confederacy of Dunces.

It only takes a couple of people doing things deliberately, the rest may just be taking the party line. So I guess that I would have to disagree with both of you, despite the fact of the smart professor and the choice of Mary over Rose any day at other realms. I would have to say very politely (of course), that each of you is incorrect, wrong, in error, and possibly just not right about this.

ETA: I don't mind being Abbadoned or even called flaky, but calling somebody "incredibly stupid" and preventing them from responding to a direct insult like that is cowardly, in my opinion.

ETA: I have not reported a single post here nor do I intend to.

 

[Alt+F4]

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI4.html

What more do you require?

Well Mary, since you're such a Steve Moore fan then can I assume you agree with him when he said that, "no one could have left that room [Meredith's] without blood on their shoes"?

Remember Steve says that he has seen all the crime scene photos and read all the reports. It would be impossible for Rudy to have walked out of the bedroom and leave no bloody footprints leading into the bathroom where he supposedly took off at least one shoe while cleaning up.

I think it's totally ridiculous to believe that Rudy was so concerned about cleaning up yet goes back into the bedroom, then leaves bloody footprints as he heads out the front door.

So how is it that he leaves the bloody bedroom the first time with no blood on the bottom of his shoes, but the second time the bottom of his shoes does have blood on them?

As for the footprint on the bathmat, ok, let's assume it is Rudy's. How did he get blood on the bottom of his naked foot to begin with? It's been suggested that he stepped on a bloody towel that was on top of the bathmat. Well if that was the case the footprint would have been even more pronounced on the bloody towel. Was a bloody footprint found on any of the towels?

 

[LondonJohn]

Well Mary, since you're such a Steve Moore fan then can I assume you agree with him when he said that, "no one could have left that room [Meredith's] without blood on their shoes"?

Remember Steve says that he has seen all the crime scene photos and read all the reports. It would be impossible for Rudy to have walked out of the bedroom and leave no bloody footprints leading into the bathroom where he supposedly took off at least one shoe while cleaning up.

I think it's totally ridiculous to believe that Rudy was so concerned about cleaning up yet goes back into the bedroom, then leaves bloody footprints as he heads out the front door.

So how is it that he leaves the bloody bedroom the first time with no blood on the bottom of his shoes, but the second time the bottom of his shoes does have blood on them?

As for the footprint on the bathmat, ok, let's assume it is Rudy's. How did he get blood on the bottom of his naked foot to begin with? It's been suggested that he stepped on a bloody towel that was on top of the bathmat. Well if that was the case the footprint would have been even more pronounced on the bloody towel. Was a bloody footprint found on any of the towels?

Unfortunately, the "crack" Perugia forensics team stored the wet towels improperly, and they went mouldy, thereby becoming useless for analysis purposes. What a shame.

In any case, I think it's more likely that Guede took off his shoe to wash blood from his trouser (pants) leg in the bidet and his foot rested in the blood/water mixture pooling in the bowl of the bidet. If this had happened, then when he removed his foot from the bidet and stepped onto the bathmat, he would have left a print in a blood/water mix on the mat.

 

[Alt+F4]

In any case, I think it's more likely that Guede took off his shoe to wash blood from his trouser (pants) leg in the bidet and his foot rested in the blood/water mixture pooling in the bowl of the bidet. If this had happened, then when he removed his foot from the bidet and stepped onto the bathmat, he would have left a print in a blood/water mix on the mat.

Why would he put his naked foot in a bidet full of bloody water when the sink was right behind him?

If there was so much blood on his trouser leg to allow such a distinct print to be made on the bathmat why no blood at all leading from the bedroom to the bathroom?

 

[LondonJohn]

Why would he put his naked foot in a bidet full of bloody water when the sink was right behind him?

If there was so much blood on his trouser leg to allow such a distinct print to be made on the bathmat why no blood at all leading from the bedroom to the bathroom?

Have you ever tried putting your foot into a sink which is at waist height? Not to mention the fact that this would be an incredibly inefficient way to try to wash blood off a trouser leg - gravity would take the blood and water in the wrong direction - towards the waistband of the trousers.

And I'm not suggesting that Guede might have had his trousers saturated with blood, such that they might have dripped blood onto the floor wherever he walked. I'm suggesting instead that he might have had patches of blood on his trouser legs - not enough to drip off but definitely enough that he needed to wash the blood off before he was publicly visible again. And if he ran water from the bidet onto these patches of blood, it's perfectly plausible that a blood/water mixture pooled in the bidet, into which he might have placed the sole of his foot. In fact, the remnants of blood/water pooling were indeed found around the plughole of the bidet the following day. And the footprint was actually made in a fairly dilute blood/water mixture - it's only the enhanced photos that show it with any real clarity.

 

[loverofzion]

loverofzion,

The defense made the suggestion that since the flat was recently cleaned with lysoform, this is what caused the odor. See page 212 of Murder in Italy. On the other hand, I am unaware of any evidence that the flat actually was cleaned with bleach. Given that the amount of bleach in the flat had stayed the same for several months, IIRC, I doubt that it was. Whether Finzi acknowledged his error or not, I am not certain.

You have posted over 200 comments here. I do not recall a single one with a citation of the primary literature or even a citation of a contemporaneous news report or a page number in a book. Are you capable of providing citations for any of your 200 comments? I would like you to document all of them.

No problem.
As soon as every poster on this board cites a source for EVERY last thing they write.

 

[loverofzion]

loverofzion,

The defense made the suggestion that since the flat was recently cleaned with lysoform, this is what caused the odor. See page 212 of Murder in Italy. On the other hand, I am unaware of any evidence that the flat actually was cleaned with bleach. Given that the amount of bleach in the flat had stayed the same for several months, IIRC, I doubt that it was. Whether Finzi acknowledged his error or not, I am not certain.

You have posted over 200 comments here. I do not recall a single one with a citation of the primary literature or even a citation of a contemporaneous news report or a page number in a book. Are you capable of providing citations for any of your 200 comments? I would like you to document all of them.

How do you know the level of bleach found in RS's apartment remained at the same level for that period of time?

Cite sources!!!

 

[loverofzion]

loverofzion,

The defense made the suggestion that since the flat was recently cleaned with lysoform, this is what caused the odor. See page 212 of Murder in Italy. On the other hand, I am unaware of any evidence that the flat actually was cleaned with bleach. Given that the amount of bleach in the flat had stayed the same for several months, IIRC, I doubt that it was. Whether Finzi acknowledged his error or not, I am not certain.

You have posted over 200 comments here. I do not recall a single one with a citation of the primary literature or even a citation of a contemporaneous news report or a page number in a book. Are you capable of providing citations for any of your 200 comments? I would like you to document all of them.

Then why claim as you did that the police officer had indeed amended his statement that there was a strong smell of bleach in the apartment?

 

[christianahannah]

Unfortunately, the "crack" Perugia forensics team stored the wet towels improperly, and they went mouldy, thereby becoming useless for analysis purposes. What a shame.

In any case, I think it's more likely that Guede took off his shoe to wash blood from his trouser (pants) leg in the bidet and his foot rested in the blood/water mixture pooling in the bowl of the bidet. If this had happened, then when he removed his foot from the bidet and stepped onto the bathmat, he would have left a print in a blood/water mix on the mat.

I think there was only one towel which did not yield results - the green towel which was located under Meredith's body.

Two other towels which were recovered from the bedroom did yield results which matched Meredith's profile.

 

[loverofzion]

Please explain.

What do you find snide Mary?
Sigh.