Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[Christian]

Its a straw man because you didn't note that christian said "I don't think it is warranted that you include in the group agnostics unless you can support that the data includes them." even though you highlighted it
the group he is talking about is non theists
see straw. You could have found that out for yourself by actually reading the thread instead of just drive by posting, but whatever, youre not covering yourself in glory, if thats your thing, groovy

the source for the pie chart was Overseas Missionary Fellowship, which is a christian organisation

What I meant is that you have to show that the chinese use the agnostic distintion and that that group has been included in the non-religious.

You can have it your way and are still reading the data wrong. You are saying that non-religious equates to non theists. This is not true.

 

[Marduk]

What I meant is that you have to show that the chinese use the agnostic distintion and that that group has been included in the non-religious. .

the data was from a western group, I think what you mean is baloney, you know it, i know it and everyone reading this thread knows it

You can have it your way and are still reading the data wrong.
.

yet you are incapable of accepting any viewpoint but your own, you are both arrogant and wrong,

You are saying that non-religious equates to non theists. This is not true.

I am not saying that, the chart listed all the different types of religious beliefs present in China, you have no wiggle room on this
just how dumb are you ?

 

[Sledge]

All I'm saying, and now I think 4 or 5 posters agree with me that it is a valid line of thought. An interesting hypothesis to test.

WHO? Everyone I can see is telling you you're on a wrong 'un with this line of thought.

 

[D'rok]

You can have it your way and are still reading the data wrong. You are saying that non-religious equates to non theists. This is not true.

To be fair, there is a point here. Religion is not a necessary condition for god-belief.

But you are making an error by excluding the non-religious entirely. Surely you must admit that it is likely that a significant population of the non-religious are also non-theist?

 

[FattyCatty]

Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve. They don't know. So how can they be atheists, who know they disbelieve (or believe in no god, whichever)?

Isn't about time that we make this issue a sticky?

Knowledge and belief are not the same thing. Agnostics lack knowledge and they lack belief, but they self-identify with their lack of knowledge rather than their lack of belief.

Show me an agnostic that believes in gods.

An agnostic who believed in a god would be a theist. An agnostic who believed a god was impossible would be an atheist. An agnostic doesn't know, which means either being or not being is possible.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism thefreedictionary.com/agnostic

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

How does this equal atheist?

 

[Christian]

Regarding the bolded, yes you are.

You are pigeonholing and stereotyping all atheists as culturally American and atheistically Christian, and you are ignoring the nuance that exists even within that narrow group.

No, no, no. I'm giving examples of possible outcomes of a possible survey. There is no other way to explain the test, unless one describes how the test would be conducted.

I can repeat till I'm blue in the face that I'm not claiming there are common traits. I don't know this. I would like to find out via a scientifically valid survey.

I can accept that others (most) might thing my hypothesis and testing is a waste of time or the like. I can accept this. The only thing I defend is that, a priori, one cannot via just logical reasoning reject the hypothesis.

I'm just repeating myself here.

 

[Sun Countess]

WHO? Everyone I can see is telling you you're on a wrong 'un with this line of thought.

Maybe he's including his imaginary invisible friends.

 

[D'rok]

An agnostic who believed in a god would be a theist. An agnostic who believed a god was impossible would be an atheist. An agnostic doesn't know, which means either being or not being is possible.


How does this equal atheist?

I've highlighted where you are going wrong.

Once again, you are conflating belief and knowledge and attributing to atheists a false position based on that conflation.

 

[Marduk]

An agnostic who believed in a god would be a theist. An agnostic who believed a god was impossible would be an atheist. An agnostic doesn't know, which means either being or not being is possible.


How does this equal atheist?

Have you not realised yet that you are the only person here (apart from christian) who is discussing agnostics are/n't atheists
youve been told once that the group is "non theists"
do you need to be told again

the post you quoted from D'rok didn't even mention the word "atheist"

N.B. This all started when christian claimed that most chinese were theists, thats why the pie chart and thats why the alternative to his claim is not atheists but non theists. You'd need to read the last 3 pages to understand that

 

[D'rok]

No, no, no. I'm giving examples of possible outcomes of a possible survey. There is no other way to explain the test, unless one describes how the test would be conducted.

I can repeat till I'm blue in the face that I'm not claiming there are common traits. I don't know this. I would like to find out via a scientifically valid survey.

I can accept that others (most) might thing my hypothesis and testing is a waste of time or the like. I can accept this. The only thing I defend is that, a priori, one cannot via just logical reasoning reject the hypothesis.

I'm just repeating myself here.

You made claims about the outcome of the survey. You presented those claims as a list of traits that you claimed would result from surveying atheists.

A priori, you cannot make that list.

 

[Christian]

To be fair, there is a point here. Religion is not a necessary condition for god-belief.

But you are making an error by excluding the non-religious entirely. Surely you must admit that it is likely that a significant population of the non-religious are also non-theist?

I think someone cited a statistic that corroborates my claim. And yes, that is a posibility. But, from what I have read, most chinese are theist. This is consistent with the idea that the brain is predisposed (evolutionary process) to the supernatural. Consider that most statistics place atheism at 3%.

If, for a second, you could suspend your tough stance and ask, why is it that there is a group of individuals that is not like most. Is there something different here? Wouldn't you like to explore this in a scientific and objective way?

It might come to absolutely nothing, after all is said and done.

But maybe one could find a correlation of common traits. Maybe a combination of traits like being a contrarian, independent thinker, higher IQ, etc. leads to atheism for those who where theists and to remain an atheist for those who began as such.


It would be fascinating to find a formula of the mental traits that might leads to atheism (or to remain an atheist). Or to conclude that no such thing exists.

 

[Christian]

You made claims about the outcome of the survey. You presented those claims as a list of traits that you claimed would result from surveying atheists.

A priori, you cannot make that list.

If you read the first post, this is what I posted:

"This is only a mental exercise and pure speculation (on my part). I do think it is an interesting topic to consider."

I posted those as to describe what I would expect the data to look like. They are meant as examples, ilustrations. Please accept my explanation. I don't and can't say that these traits are common to all atheist or the general population the atheists.

I'm just trying to explain an idea. I think it is an interesting idea.

 

[Marduk]

I think someone cited a statistic that corroborates my claim. And yes, that is a posibility. But, from what I have read, most chinese are theist.

what have you been reading ?

heres another 4 data sets that show you are wrong
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_473.html
according to these surveys non religion runs between 50 and 71%

 

[Christian]

what have you been reading ?

heres another 4 data sets that show you are wrong
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_473.html
according to these surveys non religion runs between 50 and 71%

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100726T-YangChina.html

 

[Marduk]

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100726T-YangChina.html

ahhh right, so youre saying that the unsupported beliefs of a catholic (Fenggang Yang) outweigh numerous census data sets

fail

 

[D'rok]

I think someone cited a statistic that corroborates my claim. And yes, that is a posibility. But, from what I have read, most chinese are theist. This is consistent with the idea that the brain is predisposed (evolutionary process) to the supernatural. Consider that most statistics place atheism at 3%.

Definitions again. Going by FattyCatty's definition that atheists are those who believe that god is impossible, I may be inclined to believe that statistic. Are THOSE the people you are interested in? Knock yourself out. But you won't be able to conclude anything about atheism qua atheism based on that study.

Or are you interested in the demographic that simply lacks belief? I suspect the only common denominator in that group will be a cultural practice of de-emphasizing religion.

If, for a second, you could suspend your tough stance and ask, why is it that there is a group of individuals that is not like most.

Not like most WHERE! In the USA? In Latin America? In Scandinavia? In Russia? In Canada? In China? C'mon.

Is there something different here? Wouldn't you like to explore this in a scientific and objective way?

Sociology is not science. How you frame your enquiry will determine your results.

It might come to absolutely nothing, after all is said and done.

But maybe one could find a correlation of common traits. Maybe a combination of traits like being a contrarian, independent thinker, higher IQ, etc. leads to atheism for those who where theists and to remain an atheist for those who began as such.

Why are you stuck on this list of traits? Maybe the answer is cultural. Maybe if children aren't taught religion, they won't believe in god.

It would be fascinating to find a formula of the mental traits that might leads to atheism (or to remain an atheist). Or to conclude that no such thing exists.

Atheism is not a diagnosis.

 

[Christian]

ahhh right, so youre saying that the unsupported beliefs of a catholic (Fenggang Yang) outweigh numerous census data sets

fail

this is not accurate.

 

[Sledge]

All I'm saying, and now I think 4 or 5 posters agree with me that it is a valid line of thought. An interesting hypothesis to test.

Again, who are these people?

 

[Marduk]

this is not accurate.

really ?

he got his phd from the catholic university of America and his data set came from a questionaire that was answered by 1559 people, what about the 1,324 653,441 chinese people who didn't answer ?

fail
this time epic
do the research and stop speculating please
this is getting tiresome and you are rapidly proving the point of the recent survey that showed theists were less intelligent than non theists

 

[Christian]

Or are you interested in the demographic that simply lacks belief? I suspect the only common denominator in that group will be a cultural practice of de-emphasizing religion.

Excellent, your suspicions can be tested (as mine)

Not like most WHERE! In the USA? In Latin America? In Scandinavia? In Russia? In Canada? In China? C'mon.

This is why a random sample is a must (as with any valid statistical test)

Sociology is not science. How you frame your enquiry will determine your results.

Yes, excellent again. I proposed a survey of a random sample with a control group (double blinded test) And to be almost 100% representative of the whole population we can use the full 2,500 people for both the test and control group.

Why are you stuck on this list of traits? Maybe the answer is cultural. Maybe if children aren't taught religion, they won't believe in god.

A testable hypothesis it is.

Atheism is not a diagnosis.

No, of course not. Don't look at it this way. You can think of it as how someone becomes a pianist or painter.