Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

The trace to which you refer was of Meredith Kercher's blood on the blade.
How would that be on the blade BEFORE the murder, especially as she had never been to Raffaello's apartment?

Be logical please.

Sigh. I don't suppose you would be willing to provide a citation for your claim that Meredith's blood was found on the blade of the knife, would you, loverofzion?

 

[LondonJohn]

"Although there is considerable standard deviation in gastric emptying time, these results may nevertheless serve as reference values for further studies."

yes, i mentioned that one above

the abstract indicates that the authors consider the results as being of limited value:

they suggest only that the results may be used as "reference values" in "future studies"

they also note considerable deviation

i will look up the article

Do you know what is meant by the phrase "these results may nevertheless serve as reference values for further studies"? It means that the papers' authors consider that the experimentally-derived values which they've established from their statistically-significant study are - in their opinion - robust and reliable enough to be used as a reference point for other researchers examining gastric emptying characteristics. In this instance, the reference data are the characteristics of T(lag) and T(1/2) in healthy adults - in terms of the median values and the frequency spreads either side of the median.

The paper explains that the purpose of their study was essentially to establish just such a set of reference data, since - in the authors' opinion - no such reference data had yet been established. So this study was explicitly intended to establish reference data for healthy adults, and to examine whether there was any correlation with age sex or BMI (the study found no correlation).

 

[treehorn]

i've noticed a lot of the people supporting Knox (on other sites) have likened Italy to a 3rd world county

it strikes me as rather ironic, therefore, that a scientific study hailing from a bona fide 3rd world country is being advanced as the key to her release

nevertheless, i will give the IJP article its due

 

[loverofzion]

Sigh. I don't suppose you would be willing to provide a citation for your claim that Meredith's blood was found on the blade of the knife, would you, loverofzion?

With pleasure Mary.
Sigh.

Page 194 of the Massei report states clearly that on the 31 cm. knife found in RS's apt on the handle was the genetic profile of AK and on a point on the blade THE GENETEIC PROFILE OF THE VICTIM.
There were no such genetic profiles found on any other knives collected in the sample.

Next.

 

[loverofzion]

i've noticed a lot of the people supporting Knox (on other sites) have likened Italy to a 3rd world county

it strikes me as rather ironic, therefore, that a scientific study hailing from a bona fide 3rd world country is being advanced as the key to her release

nevertheless, i will give the IJP article its due

Right.
And of all the "contaminated" forensics, only those implicating Rudy are credible to these believers.

 

[Mary_H]

i've noticed a lot of the people supporting Knox (on other sites) have likened Italy to a 3rd world county

it strikes me as rather ironic, therefore, that a scientific study hailing from a bona fide 3rd world country is being advanced as the key to her release

nevertheless, i will give the IJP article its due

I have never noticed that. Would you happen to have any examples? (Mentions of Italy, that is.)

 

[LondonJohn]

i've noticed a lot of the people supporting Knox (on other sites) have likened Italy to a 3rd world county

it strikes me as rather ironic, therefore, that a scientific study hailing from a bona fide 3rd world country is being advanced as the key to her release

nevertheless, i will give the IJP article its due

It's one of many papers, all of which are consistent with each other in the way they chart the bell curve for T(lag) in healthy adults.

If there's a paper which contradicts all of these other studies, I would be incredibly interested to read it. In fact, I've looked for just such a paper, but I just keep on finding papers which confirm the other papers' conclusions on T(lag). Funny, that.

 

[treehorn]

Do you know what is meant by the phrase "these results may nevertheless serve as reference values for further studies"?

yes

i do

 

[Mary_H]

With pleasure Mary.
Sigh.

Page 194 of the Massei report states clearly that on the 31 cm. knife found in RS's apt on the handle was the genetic profile of AK and on a point on the blade THE GENETEIC PROFILE OF THE VICTIM.
There were no such genetic profiles found on any other knives collected in the sample.

Next.

But where's the part about the blood?

 

[treehorn]

I have never noticed that. Would you happen to have any examples?

really?

it's quite common

it won't be hard for you to hunt down examples

 

[LondonJohn]

But where's the part about the blood?

D'oh Mary! Don't you know that the magic cleaning fluid removed all of the red blood cells (which outnumber DNA-containing white blood cells by around 800:1, and of which only a tiny number are necessary to produce a positive TMB result), while miraculously leaving either some white blood cells or dermal cells in the mythical "scratch" on the blade.

I thought this was common knowledge by now.....

 

[Mary_H]

really?

it's quite common

it won't be hard for you to hunt down examples

As I said, I have never noticed it, so I wouldn't begin to know where to look. You are the one making the claim. If you don't want to support it, then I won't bother to believe it.

Now that I think about it, I do recall someone making some derogatory remarks, very similar to the ones you have made, about the IJP on the Perugia Shock blog earlier this week, but those were not made by an Amanda Knox supporter.

 

[Mary_H]

D'oh Mary! Don't you know that the magic cleaning fluid removed all of the red blood cells (which outnumber DNA-containing white blood cells by around 800:1, and of which only a tiny number are necessary to produce a positive TMB result), while miraculously leaving either some white blood cells or dermal cells in the mythical "scratch" on the blade.

I thought this was common knowledge by now.....

My brain is a bit addled from sniffin' too much of the bleach I use to clean my butcher knives.

 

[Machiavelli]

In fact, the brief paragraph you quoted and the one immediately before it (dealing with the Abbey Bank call) appear to be the full extent of Micheli's analysis of Meredith's cell phone usage

.

It is obvious and clear how Micheli says he based his analysis on several days of Meredith's pohne records, no matter if you try to conceal it.

 

[Mary_H]

really?

it's quite common

it won't be hard for you to hunt down examples

Well, what do you know, treehorn, I owe you a big fat apology. I misread your post and responded too quickly. I thought you were referring to India, not Italy. Was my face red! I am sincerely sorry. Of course, there are many comparisons of Italy's judicial system to those of third world countries by Amanda's supporters; I agree.

ETA: Musta been the bleach.

 

[treehorn]

More importantly, is he suggesting that we shouldn't even mention it because it's Indian, and hence unworthy of inclusion in the discussion? I betcha if it showed t(lag) times in the five hour range the guilters would have an entirely different view of Indian science.

i have no preference either way

Veritas

that a BSC in psychology by any chance? Studies with less than thirty subjects are not at all uncommon in the biomedical literature in my experience, although of course more is always better.

not psych

i agree

 

[Machiavelli]

The difference between justice in Massachusetts and Perugia is the difference between night and day.

I still think the Massachusetts legal system sucks, but I believe the Italian system sucks more

.

You can believe what you want. I believe differently. I think the current Italian system is far better.
You can also vote for the system you like in your state. In the place where I live, the opinions that matters is the one of the locals like myself and the law is what has been established here, what you think and do at your home counts for zero.

 

[treehorn]

Well, what do you know, treehorn, I owe you a big fat apology. I misread your post and responded too quickly. I thought you were referring to India, not Italy. Was my face red! I am sincerely sorry. Of course, there are many comparisons of Italy's judicial system to those of third world countries by Amanda's supporters; I agree.

ETA: Musta been the bleach.

no worries

i'm really quite harmless ;-)

 

[katy_did]

.

It is obvious and clear how Micheli says he based his analysis on several days of Meredith's pohne records, no matter if you try to conceal it.

And what is that he was analysing - is it simply connections in "Ponte Rio – Montelaguardia", as Micheli himself states? I see no evidence Micheli was even aware of the specific cell (30064) which Meredith's phone connected with on that occasion, or that if he was, he understood the significance of it. After all, his knowledge of fingerprint evidence was obviously quite poor, as emerged in the trial. What was his knowledge of cell phone connections like, I wonder?

My problem is that his analysis contains barely any detail, especially when compared to Massei and the defence's analysis of the same. As I said, i don't think he had access to the complete information explored in the trial. Had the various analyses by the different experts even been carried out at that stage...? I suspect they had not, and that this is why Micheli never refers to them (or at least, that he didn't have access to them).

 

[Mary_H]

no worries

i'm really quite harmless ;-)

It's hard to tell; you are taking your sweet time revealing your true purpose.

I shouldn't stay up so late. It's okay, though, my faux pas will give the kids at Brand X something to jaw about tomorrow. They don't like to go too many days without a dose of Mary H8 ridicule.