Did Abdelbaset al-Megrahi blow up Pan Am 103?

[Bunntamas]

Okay, I was trying to follow "protocol" by furthering comments in the new forum you linked above, but it looks like we're continuing here.

Huh, a poll in this forum, which is mainly populated by Americans who know nothing about the case except what they hear on the US media!

Ummm.... if the poll is mainly populated by "Americans who know nothing about the case..." why was the poll created in that forum?

Er, I don't think you get that. That letter wasn't open for anyone to sign. It was only signed by people who were invited, as having sufficient standing in the matter. I see they even left out a couple of pushy nonentities who were trying to muscle in on it.

Sufficient standing according to whom? You think CL has sufficient standing in the matter? LOL! And so what. It still failed.

Well, if you don't post the links I can't comment. However, you know what I think of Charles.

Ha! Yep, I do know. Didn't think it was productive to go down that rabbit hole. Hence I didn't post the link.

Newspaper comments pages full of loudmouthed ignorant Americans. Gosh, what a lot of them there are!

Yikes. I agree Americans can be loud mouthed and ignorant. However, think the same argument could be made for Scots and Brits. And have you forgotten that PA103 was mostly occupied by Americans who have been rightly outraged about the atrocity and the following events? I've seen many nasty, ignorant, loudmouthed comments (which seem to out number the Americans') by scots and brits who have zero involvement in this case. But we digress.....

Well, you're wrong for a start, because I noticed a couple of Libyan names on the open letter. I see one already on this new petition. This is a Scottish thing though, it's only natural most signatories will be Scots.

Okay, I'l give ya the "couple of Libyans" How many of them are Megrahi's family? Friends? As for "this is a Scottish thing", wow. If that's so, how is it that Libyans have signed it? Do you think the entire world revolves around scotland on this issue? Do you think that Megrahi and his other supporters, the ugly Americans and the rest of the world are not capable of news, internet and other media? Do you doubt that Swire, Black, Megrahi's counsel and others close to him are keeping Megrahi and his family abreast of this? If I were Megrahi's kin, I would be doing everything I could, to fight for my father, brother, son, whatever he is to his family in order keep this in the front of the media and not let this die. That's what I did for my father. Guess what. We got an ivestigation, a trial, and we are still fighting. Yes, I have seen the points in objection on the former. Not the point here. Point is, why aren't Megrahi's family and friends fighting harder? I stood next to his wife in the ladies room at the trial. I wanted to catch her eye and give her a look of understanding that we're all in this together, and that I didn't blame her for whatever her husband did. She looked at her shoes then, and throughout the entire trial, when she wasn't watching what was happening beyond the glass in the court room. I'm sure she was counseled not to look at other family members, and I recognize cultural issues about not looking at others in the eye. Still....

As for Megrahi's family, do you really think that would be appropriate?

Why not??? His daughter has stated in the media that she wants to study law as an inspiration by what her father has been through. And Megrahi himself published (or had published by others) a bleeding web site with all of his arguments. If he really wants to portray his innocence, why isn't he and/ or his family fighting as hard as all of the involved families are, much less folks like those here on JREF, Black's blog, those who comment in the media who aren't even involved in this case?

Where will this go? Probably nowhere, because the committee is perfectly at liberty to chuck the thing in the bucket if it feels like it, and it probably will. However, that doesn't constitute proof Megrahi is gulty any more than the other peripheral irrelevancies that have been brought up.

Well, I for one, would like to see more about the pubilc opinion at this stage in the game, as well as what influence if any, Swire's recent letters in the media have had and prior to the second appeal being dropped, I still wanted to see the alleged evidence that was to be presented by the defense. The American family members did not sit still and allow their government to simply "chuck the thing". I, along with my fellow family members lobbied our government. I wrote countless letters. I bent the ears of as many as I could find who might help move our case forward. I went to the UN. My family hired attorneys before any settlement money from Libya, taking that risk that if we lost, we would have to pay legal fees. Even after our case was thrown out of court on Foreign Soverein Immunities actions. Guess what. We continued fighting, and got that legislation ammended. And we got our day in court. Because we believed in what we were doing and persevered. I find it very sad.

I have a great deal of respect and warmth in my heart for the Scots who treated my mother and me with such warmth when we visited Lockerbie. They could have just as easily been resentful toward the Americans and their airliner who rained chaos, death and destruction on their small town. I was very fearful of this upon our arrival. But they weren't that way at all. They were beyond kind and supportive.

However, going forward other Scots and Brits who support Megrahi sit by and waste their time bitching on the internet as opposed to actually getting involved and doing something with and about their government.
So, again, it's doubtful, but we'll see if this petition proves anything.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Why not??? He published a web site with all of his arguments? If he really wants to portray his innocence, why isn't he and/ or his family fighting as hard as all of you are?

Can you please elaborate on that point, when you get a chance, and explain its significance? If you had to answer the question yourself with a best guess, what would you say?

 

[Rolfe]

Deleted, because I think this is a complete digression that's going nowhere.

Caustic Logic is right. Why do you think Megrahi is behaving the way he is? And as an ancillary question, is there any way he could behave, or could have behaved in the past, that you wouldn't declare supported your assertion that he's guilty?

Forum polls and newspaper comments pages do not a coherent argument make.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Can you please elaborate on that point, when you get a chance, and explain its significance? If you had to answer the question yourself with a best guess, what would you say?

I think, at the same time you were posting this comment I edited my comment above. Please advise, if I haven't elaborated enough.
~B

 

[Rolfe]

Bunntamas, could I counsel a deep breath and a step back? You noted that in your fight, you had setbacks, you lost at one stage. I don't think anyone was pointing fingers at you, calling you pathetic and sneering "LOL" at the time though.

The petition is only a petition. It shouldn't and doesn't threaten you. It's only been open since this morning. It's gone from about 120 signatures to 210 while I've been posting on the forum. It's a bit early to be pointing and sneering, whatever.

I don't know why you're so angry. The petition is only asking for an independent inquiry into the verdict. Why does this upset you so much?

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Caustic Logic is right. Why do you think Megrahi is behaving the way he is?

I asked you first. No, I asked you first.... really? must we dance down the adolescent CL path? I Dunno why Megrahi hasn't come forth, outside of the obvious that he is allegedly ill. BUt that's no excuse for his family not to fight for him. Maybe they're just happy he's home and they want to crawl beneathe the sidewalk (or sand dune, or whatever) and be done with all of this. I know there were many times my family and I wanted to say, this is killing us. Let's just give up. But we didn't. Maybe in Megrahi's case, coward is,a s coward does, and it'a trickle down effect into the family.
Sorry if that doesn't adhere to your

wouldn't declare supported your assertion that he's guilty?

Am I now not allowed to state my position? Geez.

SO, back to the initial question that I asked, which was: why isn't Megrahi and / or his family stepping up? What do you think?

 

[Bunntamas]

Bunntamas, could I counsel a deep breath and a step back?

Thanks Rolfe. Your counsel is always appreciated.

You noted that in your fight, you had setbacks, you lost at one stage. I don't think anyone was pointing fingers at you, calling you pathetic and sneering "LOL" at the time though.

Ummmmm... I think CL has made some very sneering remarks, both here and on his blog, which he has since removed, appologized for, and contradicted his apology by stating that he was "mad" at me. And yes, I think that deserves a LOL. That is all I was referring to in my above remarks. It wasn't meant to create a whole new row. It was simply meant to, as you counsel, please move forward sans sneer.

The petition is only a petition. It shouldn't and doesn't threaten you. It's only been open since this morning. It's gone from about 120 signatures to 210 while I've been posting on the forum. It's a bit early to be pointing and sneering, whatever.

Oh, I'm not at all threatened by the petition. In fact I'm quite looking forward to the results, and whether or not opinion has changed, per past petitions and polls, and as a reault of recent (noted above) media events.

I don't know why you're so angry. The petition is only asking for an independent inquiry into the verdict. Why does this upset you so much?

Seriously, I'm not angry. I'm just expressing my views. Sorry if I come across that way.

 

[Rolfe]

SO, back to the initial question that I asked, which was: why isn't Megrahi and / or his family stepping up? What do you think?

You want the honest truth? I don't think the Libyan government wants the conviction overturned. I think the Libyan government was putting pressure on him to withdraw the appeal. I think that's what the bizarre terms of that PTA were all about - to allow Libya to pressurise Megrahi to drop the appeal.

I think he thought he could go home and continue a campaign to demonstrate his innocence, but after he published some initial parts of his defence material he was told to stop it.

Why? Politics. The world has moved on in the past 10 years - no, the past 20. Libya doesn't want the clock turned back, it doesn't want the USA angered even more, it wants to move on. It doesn't want to re-open old wounds and de-stabilise the international agreements it has negotiated in recent years.

That's what I honestly think. Of course it's speculation, but you did ask.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks Rolfe. Your counsel is always appreciated.

I sympathise with you very much indeed, you know that. But some of us, myself and Buncrana in particular, have posted reams of stuff in this thread that we hoped you were reading, commentary and exposition on the evidence, and you didn't post apart from highlighting the industrial action the Maltese baggage handlers took when they collectively decided to boycott Zeist.

We commented on that too, and explained the background to their decision. It was regrettable, but I can see why they felt the way they did. They realised that Giaka's statements about having seen Megrahi and Fhimah with the bomb on Malta were going to be used to brand them not just as liars but as complicit in the plot. They were absolutely furious about not being believed, and the increasing intrusiveness of the inquiry even though nothing was being found. They may even have been afraid.

We posted all that, and you still didn't respond. Busy, I thought. She has studying to do. She has a life. She'll read it and come to comment when she's ready.

But then this e-Petition is started, and suddenly Bunntamas bursts all over two threads, posting furiously, and I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest. Would you think better of everyone if the petition hadn't been started?

Ummmmm... I think CL has made some very sneering remarks, both here and on his blog, which he has since removed, appologized for, and contradicted his apology by stating that he was "mad" at me. And yes, I think that deserves a LOL. That is all I was referring to in my above remarks. It wasn't meant to create a whole new row. It was simply meant to, as you counsel, please move forward sans sneer.

OK, we've done some go-out-and-come-in-again before, we can do it again. I'll just observe, mildly, that Caustic Logic doesn't have a monopoly on sneering round here. And that in this thread, recently, he hasn't said anything to justify censure as far as I can see. So if you have a gripe with him, take it outside.

Oh, I'm not at all threatened by the petition. In fact I'm quite looking forward to the results, and whether or not opinion has changed, per past petitions and polls, and as a reault of recent (noted above) media events.

Seriously, I'm not angry. I'm just expressing my views. Sorry if I come across that way.

OK, let's go out and come in again. I would far rather discuss the evidence than post sterile back-and- forth about whose online poll trumps some other online poll.

As I said, I'm not expecting this petition to achieve anything much on its own. These e-Petitions are just a device for the parliament to make the plebs think it's listening. This one is just another way to keep the profile up. The government and the opposition parties are absolutely adamant that Megrahi's appeal will never be heard, and that there will never be an inquiry, and it will take more than this to change their minds.

Rolfe the realist.

 

[Bunntamas]

I sympathise with you very much indeed, you know that. But some of us, myself and Buncrana in particular, have posted reams of stuff in this thread that we hoped you were reading, commentary and exposition on the evidence, and you didn't post apart from highlighting the industrial action the Maltese baggage handlers took when they collectively decided to boycott Zeist.

We commented on that too, and explained the background to their decision. It was regrettable, but I can see why they felt the way they did. They realised that Giaka's statements about having seen Megrahi and Fhimah with the bomb on Malta were going to be used to brand them not just as liars but as complicit in the plot. They were absolutely furious about not being believed, and the increasing intrusiveness of the inquiry even though nothing was being found. They may even have been afraid.

We posted all that, and you still didn't respond. Busy, I thought. She has studying to do. She has a life. She'll read it and come to comment when she's ready.

Nope. Didn't comment. Sorry. I tried going back into my reams of stuff that I've collected over the years. Depression overcame me, and I recognized that I had spent many years on this and was headed down a very dark path...again. I know My father would want me to move on and have a life beyond dwelling on his death.
That, and
A) Yes, I just don't have the time to debate with you all at the lengths and detail to which you require and
B) it just wasn't worth it to re-hash all of the stuff that has already posted here and elsewhere over many years, and still not come to any tangible results on your end.
Bottom line is, neither of us has hard evidence about the loading of the bag at Malta. Neither did the court. Combined evidence, as the court concluded, however, in my opinion still speaks volumes. Maybe not to you, but to me and others, I believe it does.

But then this e-Petition is started, and suddenly Bunntamas bursts all over two threads, posting furiously, and I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest. Would you think better of everyone if the petition hadn't been started?

Noting my above comments, I already stated that I'm looking forward to the results of the petition. So, I don't understand why you're posing the question about me possibly thinking that the petition shouldn't have been started. I don't think that. And I never said it.

My interests lie in moving forward. Thus, if something new arises on the case, I will jump in. I will comment about points and issues going forward. Again, I see no point (as I've noted numerous times in comments past) in re-hashing points that have been covered for twenty plus years. My goal is to comment on what may create results. I don't think my comments above were either "bursting" or "furious". In fact I think they were quite heart felt, even agreeing with CL in one of them. Perhaps they were viewed as "furious" because I have backed off and not commented to such an extent in awhile.
Might I counsel you in backing off in accusations of my alleged bursting out in fury and your reaction to my comments a bit, please?

OK, we've done some go-out-and-come-in-again before, we can do it again. I'll just observe, mildly, that Caustic Logic doesn't have a monopoly on sneering round here. And that in this thread, recently, he hasn't said anything to justify censure as far as I can see. So if you have a gripe with him, take it outside.

Got it. You chose to elaborate on the request that I made not to "sneer" (and by the way, he has not been so innocent in his recent posts - yet I have ignored him), and I explained. That's it. End of story. Good lord, can we move past this already?

OK, let's go out and come in again. I would far rather discuss the evidence than post sterile back-and- forth about whose online poll trumps some other online poll.

As I said, I'm not expecting this petition to achieve anything much on its own. These e-Petitions are just a device for the parliament to make the plebs think it's listening. This one is just another way to keep the profile up. The government and the opposition parties are absolutely adamant that Megrahi's appeal will never be heard, and that there will never be an inquiry, and it will take more than this to change their minds.
Rolfe the realist.

Well, I believe the poll was created by Robert Black's Justice for Megrahi Foundation....Group, or whatever it's called. Per your comment above, do you think he has, or is a "device for parliament?"

Hmmmm......

 

[Rolfe]

Bunntamas, anyone can apply to the parliament to ask them to put up an e-Petition. It's a device the parliament has introduced to make it look as if it's listening to the proles. You make of it what you can. The Justice for Megrahi committee has decided to mount an e-Petition. They clearly think "every little helps" to keep the case in the public view.

However, the parliament, with a few individual exceptions, is absolutely adamant that it will not have that appeal heard, or give the relatives the independent inquiry they've been petitioning for since 1989. For whatever reason, I believe because they don't want to have the justice system look stupid, and they absolutely categorically don't want to re-open 270 murder cases.

So the committee can take a look at it and say, OK we looked, no way. And that's what will happen.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Bunntamas, anyone can apply to the parliament to ask them to put up an e-Petition. It's a device the parliament has introduced to make it look as if it's listening to the proles. You make of it what you can. The Justice for Megrahi committee has decided to mount an e-Petition. They clearly think "every little helps" to keep the case in the public view.

However, the parliament, with a few individual exceptions, is absolutely adamant that it will not have that appeal heard, or give the relatives the independent inquiry they've been petitioning for since 1989. For whatever reason, I believe because they don't want to have the justice system look stupid, and they absolutely categorically don't want to re-open 270 murder cases.

So the committee can take a look at it and say, OK we looked, no way. And that's what will happen.

Rolfe.

Sad.
I'm not familiar with Scots law. Here in the US democracy means that if enough people bitch loud enough, and long enough, and push our representatives hard enough, we can accomplish changes in our laws and actions by the people we've elected to lead our country. No offense, but I had no idea Scotland was such a dictatorship.

 

[Rolfe]

Depression overcame me, and and recognized that I had spent many years on this. My father would want me to move on and have a life beyond dwelling on his death.

Now that's certainly true. I hope you do have a life, though. If this is depressing you, then obviously it's not good.

That, and
A) Yes, I just don't have the time to debate with you all at the lengths and detail to which you requireand
B) it just wasn't worth it to re-hash all of the stuff that you all have already posted over many years, and still not come to any tangible results on your end.
Bottom line is, neither of us has hard evidence about re: Malta bag. Neither did the court. Combined evidence, however, in my opinion still speaks volumes. Maybe not to you, but to me and others, I believe they do.

No, nobody has any evidence at all about any Malta bag, and that's a fact. If the combined evidence speaks volumes to you, could you explain these volumes to the rest of us?

Did you read my post about Barry George? The combined evidence was supposed to have spoken volumes there too. He had previous convictions, he was a borderline stalker, he was obsessed with the military and guns, lots of other stuff. And there was that dreadful photograph, which looks quite appalling. All that was true, but he still didn't kill Jill Dando.

I think you're doing the same with Megrahi. I think you're focussing on the peripherals, some of which are true but some of which may not be, when what is lacking is a concrete connection to the actual crime. However, I'm open to be persuaded otherwise, if you will try to put your case.

Noting my above comments, My interests lie in moving forward. Thus, if something new arises on the case, I will jump in. I will comment about points and issues going forward. Again, I see no point (as I've noted numerous times in comments past) in re-hashing points that have been covered for twenty plus years. My goal is to comment on what may create results.

I don't envisage any progress, then. The discussion in this thread is regarding whether or not Megrahi was involved in bombing the plane. If you don't want to address any of the points I or others are making, then it's a bit futile.

I don't think my comments above were either "bursting" or "furious". In fact I think they were quite heart felt, even agreeing with CL in one of them. Perhaps they were viewed as "furious" because I have backed off and not commented to such an extent in awhile.
Might I counsel you in backing off in accusations of my alleged bursting out in fury and your reaction to my comments a bit, please?

Oh dear, two nations divided by a common language. "Bursting" as in suddenly half a dozen posts after a week's silence, "furious" as in typing "fast and furious". That's all.

Got it. You chose to elaborate on the request that I made not to "sneer", and I explained. That's it. End of story. Good lord, can we move past this already?

Oh, please!

I commented earlier that I hoped that we appreciate where you're coming from and how you feel, and I also hoped that you understood now where we're coming from. We genuinely believe Megrahi has been a victim of a miscarriage of justice, and we're more than a little hacked off at the official blind eye that's being turned to the whole thing.

We're also deeply disturbed that the real terrorists have been able to get away with this atrocity for more than 20 years, because the politicians don't find it convenient to look at the truth.

Now I propose to respect your position, and I hope in return you will respect mine.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Sad.
I'm not familiar with Scots law. Here in the US democracy means that if enough people bitch loud enough, and long enough, and push our representatives hard enough, we can accomplish changes in our laws and actions by the people we've elected to lead our country. No offense, but I had no idea Scotland was such a dictatorship.

Mmm, I've read enough in the US Politics section to suspect it's not quite as easy....

But sure, in Westminster they will just give topics they don't want to address the body-swerve, and that's the end of it. Pressure groups have variable success depending on how well aligned their aims are with the aims of the party in power.

I had hoped it would be better, not necessarily in Holyrood, but with an SNP government. I'm deeply disappointed by the way they've handled the Megrahi case.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Oh dear, two nations divided by a common language. "Bursting" as in suddenly half a dozen posts after a week's silence, "furious" as in typing "fast and furious". That's all.

Okay. Language and all that. And yes, I do have a life. Sorry. I didn't realize you all were waiting with baited breath for my next comment "after a week's silence" Sigh.

Oh, please!

We're also deeply disturbed that the real terrorists have been able to get away with this atrocity for more than 20 years, because the politicians don't find it convenient to look at the truth.

Now I propose to respect your position, and I hope in return you will respect mine.

Rolfe.

I deeply respect your opinion. It saddens me that your government will not listen to its people, and seemingly (and I may be wrong here, but) that the people may not be doing enough to make the government listen. And I thank you for respecting my opinion. But with comments like "oh please!" it's difficult to to maintain rapport. Again, sad.

 

[Bunntamas]

Mmm, I've read enough in the US Politics section to suspect it's not quite as easy....

But sure, in Westminster they will just give topics they don't want to address the body-swerve, and that's the end of it. Pressure groups have variable success depending on how well aligned their aims are with the aims of the party in power.

I had hoped it would be better, not necessarily in Holyrood, but with an SNP government. I'm deeply disappointed by the way they've handled the Megrahi case.

Rolfe.

Well, considering the fact that MacAskill and you have clearly stated that this is a Scottish matter, then I'm not sure how Westminster figures in. Unless of course there was that alleged deal. And of course the points you've made above about Megrahi being stifled by his government. Oh, what a wicked web.

 

[Rolfe]

This is where I was going with the Malta baggage question. It's from a documentary that was aired in 1998, before the Zeist trial.

SHELLEY: Whatever the supergrass says though, Air Malta has a perfectly preserved set of records from flight KM180 which flew to Frankfurt on 21st December 1988. Tickets give details of who each passengers was and their final destination. Other documents show exactly how many bags were checked in and loaded on to the plane that day. The documents show no inconsistency.

WILFRED BORG (Operational Co-ordinator Air Malta): [snip explanation of the Malta system, and how their records were complete and available and supplied to the investigation.]

SHELLEY: But investigators preferred to rely on incomplete and inconclusive records from Frankfurt Airport. What these show that as an unaccompanied bag was loaded on to Pan Am 103A, around the same time luggage was unloaded from the Air Malta flight.

WILFRED BORG: What the Frankfurt records indicate, and again the word is 'indicate' is that at the time that the Air Malta flight was being off-loaded from …..in Frankfurt, a bag was coded in and stationed 206 I believe, and routed to go via…..to London on to Pan Am. Now apart from the problem that the Frankfurt documentation is inaccurate, and incomplete, there is no tangible evidence in there which positively identifies the bag as coming from Malta.

SHELLEY: That was a view shared by Lord Fraser, the former Lord Advocate, almost a year after the bombing. In a statement on 5th November 1989 he said: "The Chief Constable of Dumfries and Galloway has advised me that he cannot substantiate reports about unaccompanied baggage having gone from Malta to Frankfurt let alone unaccompanied luggage with a bomb in it."

That's a view still held by the former Head of British Airways Security who was employed by Air Malta to review security on flight KM180.

DENIS PHIPPS (Former Head of Security British Airways): It is my personal opinion that the bomb which destroyed Pan Am 103 did not originate from the airport at Malta.

SHELLEY: While it might have been expected that security at a small airport on a holiday island like Malta would not rival that of a large international airport like Frankfurt, Denis Phipps discovered that quite the opposite was true.

DENIS PHIPPS: At Luqa there was a complete set of records of what had occurred, and that from those records and from questioning the staff involved, that there had been a complete chain of supervision and care over the baggage from the point it was checked in to when it was loaded. Now if we try to follow the same trail at Frankfurt what was not available were records of who had been responsible for looking after those same bags once they arrived at Frankfurt, or indeed how many bags had arrived and been handled and where they'd gone and what happened to them. Did the bag containing the bomb go on during this period of time.

VINCENT CANNISTRARO: They have vindicated themselves on paper in terms of the security procedures, but if their security personnel are suborned by hostile intelligence service, and they are completely vulnerable to whatever that hostile service would want to put on their aircraft, with baggage tags, without baggage tags. Once you have basically infiltrated the security apparatus there is no barrier to doing exactly what Fhimah and Megrahi did.

SHELLEY: According to the US State Department fact sheet Fhimah played a key role in getting the bomb suitcase on KM180. It's claimed he used his official status as station manager for Libyan Arab Airlines at Luqa Airport to bypass security.

DENIS PHIPPS: I'm satisfied that the aircraft was kept under proper supervision by Air Malta staff while it was being loaded, that the head loaded supervised the closing of the doors and I do not believe that for one moment that the loading staff would have permitted such a thing to happen.

SHELLEY: Air Malta may very well produce screeds and screeds of documentation which proves on paper that no unaccompanied bag left on flight KM180, but if, as Vincent Cannistraro argues, the system was suborned then that argument really doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it?

MICHAEL MANSFIELD QC: Well it's an extraordinary argument that Cannistraro is putting forward. If on the one hand you show by documentation, by interviewing baggage handlers, which I understood happened here, by examining the person who was supervising the whole of the baggage handlers….you're able to show it's a watertight case, then they say 'oh, it could have been suborned'. If you on the other hand have no documentation, and you aren't able to show what cases went on….they say 'ah, ah, very suspicious, why haven't you got the documentation?', so it seems on the CIA approach to life, you can't win unless you've got a particular hypothesis which is theirs, namely the Libyans did it therefore everything else flows from it.

And I think one has to be extremely careful about this, because if essentially on that thesis it would mean that the documents in Malta have all had to have been forged, it would also mean that the chief supervisor obviously has been paid off and so on, and they have no evidence, it's all very well to say all this, what are they saying, that the head supervisor of Air Malta is in the Libyan pocket, is being paid, there's no evidence of this at all. These are accusations it seems to be without any foundation at all.

Essentially, Air Malta have done everything they can. They have a secure system for handling and checking luggage, and they keep records, and all these records were present and correct. Repeated, intensive investigation found nothing to put a dent in it.

In contrast, all the Frankfurt records disappeared within days of the disaster. Nothing was supplied to the investigation. Then a full eight months later, the Frankfurt police produced a tiny excerpt of the records they said had been retained privately. Although they said they'd had that since January, they didn't produce it until August.

This excerpt was much too restricted to allow the data to be properly interpreted. The suggestion of a possible bag from Malta was tenuous, at best. The absence of the full set of records meant that this could neither be confirmed nor denied.

The investigators chose to prefer this partial, unclear and frankly questionable record from Frankfurt to the full, clear and open records from Malta. Because Cannistraro has decided that the entire Malta staff has been suborned. As Mansfield says, it's extraordinary. There's nothing the Maltese staff can possibly say or do that will be believed.

Is it any wonder they made a collective decision to boycott Zeist?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Okay. Language and all that. Sigh.

But with comments like "oh please!" it's difficult to to maintain rapport. Again, sad.

Here we go again! You said, can we move past this already? And I said, Oh, please! As in, please can we move past this already!

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Here we go again! You said, can we move past this already? And I said, Oh, please! As in, please can we move past this already!

Rofe.

Oh... Duhh.... Sorry. Thought you were commenting about me... my comments.... about comments.....blahhheerrrrbbbhhh....
Anyone got a good joke to lighten things up here?
How 'bout: "a guy walks into a bar in the late 80's with a bombeat radio....."
Sorry. Bad. Bunny. Sick Bunny. Bad, BAD Bunny.

 

[Rolfe]

It saddens me that your government will not listen to its people, and seemingly (and I may be wrong here, but) that the people may not be doing enough to make the government listen.

Well, the e-Petition is one thing to try. But the system isn't easy to work. Jim Swire seems to have worn himself down trying to get what he sees as justice. Of course, there are far fewer British victims to bear the load than there are US. I was going to say, for which we might be thankful, but that's not true. It doesn't matter which nationality you are, you're all victims.

Well, considering the fact that MacAskill and you have clearly stated that this is a Scottish matter, then I'm not sure how Westminster figures in. Unless of course there was that alleged deal. And of course the points you've made above about Megrahi being stifled by his government. Oh, what a wicked web.

I was commenting on UK politics. The Westminster parliament is a very difficult ship to turn, as I said. That was the parliament the UK victims' families fought to a standstill for ten years, and got nowhere. The first refusal of a full inquiry happened in 1989.

The Scottish parliament wasn't even inaugurated until 1999. The first two governments there were Labour, just like the Westminster government was. No chance of much change then. And they're all a bunch of tenth-rate town councillors anyway. Then the SNP got in in 2007. I genuinely hoped for better, and it has been better, but then when the Lockerbie business blew up again last year, they behaved just as badly as Labour had, and the Conservatives before them.

Sigh.

Rolfe.