Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[excaza]

So you're just going to parrot what Greer says and handwave away everything else? This is absolutely pointless, you have no intention of learning anything.

 

[TFian]

So you're just going to parrot what Greer says and handwave away everything else? This is absolutely pointless, you have no intention of learning anything.

No one's forcing you to take part in this thread.

Also, not everything I've said is from Greer. I've given plenty of sources outside Greer.

 

[excaza]

You're not willing to learn anything that doesn't already agree with your conclusion that peak oil is going to result in the complete collapse of industrial civilization. You're unwilling to take the time to understand the energy sources you're dismissing, and you're quoting people who are doing the same.

Pointless. Take off the blinders and read what is being presented to you. Heaven forbid you learn something.

 

[TFian]

You're not willing to learn anything that doesn't already agree with your conclusion that peak oil is going to result in the complete collapse of industrial civilization. You're unwilling to take the time to understand the energy sources you're dismissing, and you're quoting people who are doing the same.

Pointless. Take off the blinders and read what is being presented to you. Heaven forbid you learn something.

And you're not even willing to entertain the notion Greer is correct, and that the "myth of progress", is just that, a myth.

 

[excaza]

It's very entertaining.

And based a near complete lack of understanding of pretty much everything he's talking about.

 

[TFian]

It's very entertaining.

And based a near complete lack of understanding of pretty much everything he's talking about.

I understand Greer just fine. What are you talking about?

More on the myth of progress

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/01/this-faith-in-progress_10.html

Every culture has some distant place in space or time where it parks its dreams of a perfect world, and ours is no exception. Devout Christians in the Middle Ages imagined a heaven somewhere off beyond the outermost sphere of the sky, where angels and blessed souls sang in perfect harmony in the presence of God, far from the discords of life in the lowly world of matter. Centuries before, the ancient Greeks sang of a Golden Age somewhere in the distant past when fields sprouted crops without human labor and the world was at peace under the rule of the old wise god Kronos. We have our heaven and our Golden Age, too, but unlike most other cultures we put ours in the future, and tell ourselves that we’re moving closer to Paradise with every day that passes. Other cultures put their faith in gods or stars or cosmic cycles; we put ours in progress.

It’s not going too far, I think, to call belief in progress the dominant religion of the modern world. For most people nowadays, what matters about our past is that it’s a story of progress, a vast upward sweep from the brutal squalor of a primitive past to the Promethean splendor of a science-fiction future out among the stars. In the modern imagination, the present is by definition bigger and better than the past, just as the future will by definition be bigger and better than the present. For believers in progress, to call something “new” is to define it as “better,” while what’s old is by definition inadequate.

 

[PixyMisa]

1 - How many breeder reactors are out there and working right now?

Currently two. There was another but it was retired last year.

2 - What are the environmental consequences of mining this uranium?

It makes a hole in the ground.

3 - While there's enough to power civilization when it comes to earth, we've only had very meager success harvesting it for practical applications. Sunshine is dilute, not concentrated, it doesn't have very much usable energy in, and therefore cannot power civilization http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/energy-follows-its-bliss.html

This is, of course, untrue. It just means that it is less cost-effective.

4 - Wind, Geothermal, and Hydro make out pretty minuscule energy returns.

Actually, hydroelectric power is pretty substantial, but it's localised and mostly already in use.

5 - Yeah but at what cost?

At the cost of negative six billion deaths.

Why do we need so many nifty gizmos? We did fine when we just used human power.

That is the most absurd thing you have said yet, despite the steep competition. When we just used human power, we died like flies.

 

[TFian]

Currently two. There was another but it was retired last year.

I figured.

It makes a hole in the ground.

Actually underwater mining has a lot more negative environmental consequences than just a "hole in the ground".

Actually, hydroelectric power is pretty substantial, but it's localised and mostly already in use.

Since when?

At the cost of negative six billion deaths.

Why do we need that many people?

That is the most absurd thing you have said yet, despite the steep competition. When we just used human power, we died like flies.

Actually a lot of primitive societies had long life spans. A modern example would be the Indian state of Kerala. Despite being on the level of technology as the third world, it has a high life expectancy and high literacy rate. I'd check out the "Kerala model" when you have time.

 

[PixyMisa]

The question was somewhat rhetorical. The point is, very few are in operation, and I wouldn't base any future energy scenarios on it, since they'd essentially be fantasy scenarios.

On what do you base this strange assertion?

While Iceland does run on almost no petroleum, it's quite luddite compared to the rest of the west.

On what do you base this strange assertion?

Like what? A Roaster makes a better alarmclock than any electronic one ever has been.

Here's some homework for you.

For the next month, you have to wash the clothing and linen of a family of eight, including a baby in diapers (no disposable nappies!), an incontinent grandparent (no care facilities!) and a small child with diarrhea (no central water treatment facilities!)

A farming family. Let's say... Pig farmers.

By hand. (No washing machines! No electricity anyway!)

In cold water. (Can't waste wood heating water or you'll freeze come wintertime!)

With a good strong lye soap that makes your skin break out in a rash.

Then report back and tell us how great the 18th century was.

 

[excaza]

I understand Greer just fine.

I wasn't talking about you.

 

[TFian]

I wasn't talking about you.

Then who?

 

[PixyMisa]

I figured.

But you didn't look it up, did you?

Actually underwater mining has a lot more negative environmental consequences than just a "hole in the ground".

Why in heaven's name would we be mining underwater?

Since when?

Since 1950, basically. You're not too familiar with the 20th century, are you?

Why do we need that many people?

Need? Need?

You are proposing a course of action that would kill them. I am proposing a course of action that would not.

On your head be it.

Actually a lot of primitive societies had long life spans. A modern example would be the Indian state of Kerala. Despite being on the level of technology as the third world, it has a high life expectancy and high literacy rate. I'd check out the "Kerala model" when you have time.

I know about Kerala. It has quite decent health standards in some respects - infant mortality is relatively low (only twice the US rate, though that's skewed somewhat because reporting standards vary) - but not in others - maternal mortality is very high, twenty times the US rate. It's good compared to the rest of India, but India in general is a healthcare disaster zone, vying with sub-Saharan Africa for the worst place on the plaent.

Also, Kerala is not self-sustaining; it depends on outside funding to survive.

I would not want to live in Kerala, given any sensible alternative.

 

[PixyMisa]

No one's forcing you to take part in this thread.

Also, not everything I've said is from Greer. I've given plenty of sources outside Greer.

And they're all wrong, as we've already established.

Well, almost all wrong. The ones who noted that making biofuels from corn (in the US) was only break even were pretty much on target - indeed, it's likely a net loss.

Anyway, no doom for you.

 

[TFian]

And they're all wrong, as we've already established.

Well, almost all wrong. The ones who noted that making biofuels from corn (in the US) was only break even were pretty much on target - indeed, it's likely a net loss.

Anyway, no doom for you.

KO!

 

[PixyMisa]

I understand Greer just fine. What are you talking about?

More on the myth of progress

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2007/01/this-faith-in-progress_10.html

An absurd and unfounded strawman argument. Greer creates his ideological opponents out of whole cloth, and consistently ignores any and all evidence contrary to his concocted tale of global doom.

I wouldn't call him a fraud; on the contrary, I think it very likely that he believes every word of the drivel he spouts. But there's no reason anyone else should.

 

[TFian]

An absurd and unfounded strawman argument. Greer creates his ideological opponents out of whole cloth, and consistently ignores any and all evidence contrary to his concocted tale of global doom.

I wouldn't call him a fraud; on the contrary, I think it very likely that he believes every word of the drivel he spouts. But there's no reason anyone else should.

So, you don't think our culture teaches us the only way is up when it comes to "progress"? May I ask, if you believe there's never going to be a return to accelerating technological "progress"?

 

[lionking]

I'm glad I'm not actively participating in this thread, because it's terribly frustrating just reading it. All of Tfian's contentions about energy running out have been refuted, and his or hers response is either not to listen or to cite a loony "Archdruid". You are really making a fool of yourself TFian.

 

[TFian]

I'm glad I'm not actively participating in this thread, because it's terribly frustrating just reading it. All of Tfian's contentions about energy running out have been refuted, and his or hers response is either not to listen or to cite a loony "Archdruid". You are really making a fool of yourself TFian.

Cool?

(note - I've cited plenty of other sources, not just the Grand Archdruid)

 

[PixyMisa]

And you're not even willing to entertain the notion Greer is correct, and that the "myth of progress", is just that, a myth.

The notion is stupid.

Telegraph, telephones, radio, television, moving pictures, talkies, colour film, wire recorders, tape recorders, phonographs and gramophones, laser discs and compact discs, DVD and Blu-Ray, cathode ray tubes, ELD and LED and LCD and plasma panels, light bulbs, vacuum cleaners and washing machines, no polio or smallpox, no measles, mumps or chicken pox, no plague, no typhoid or dysentery, no rabies or tetanus, no childbed fever, antiseptics, antibiotics, anaesthetics, vacuum tubes and transistors and printed circuits and integrated circuits, trains, planes, and automobiles, men on the Moon, the Moon, and probes to every other planet, orbiting laboratories and telescopes, microwaves and lasers, lasers everywhere, rare earth magnets and magnetic disks, plastic, genetic analysis and manipulation, the green revolution (Norman Borlaug, the man who save a billion lives), radar and sonar and ADF and GPS, weather forecasting that gets it right, refrigeration and air conditioning, computers, printers, networks, embedded microcontrollers everywhere, synthetic fabrics, electricity, optical fiber, carbon fiber, aluminium, nuclear energy, running hot and cold water, flush toilets, sewer systems, cities with air you can't see, electric razors, hair dryers, air bags and crumple zones, and, oh yes, that internet thing.

This is you your tiny-minded prophet calls a myth. This is what he would have you throw away, simply because of his contempt for the intellect of his fellow man.

I tell you: No.

 

[TFian]

The notion is stupid.

Telegraph, telephones, radio, television, moving pictures, talkies, colour film, wire recorders, tape recorders, phonographs and gramophones, laser discs and compact discs, DVD and Blu-Ray, cathode ray tubes, ELD and LED and LCD and plasma panels, light bulbs, vacuum cleaners and washing machines, no polio or smallpox, no measles, mumps or chicken pox, no plague, no typhoid or dysentery, no rabies or tetanus, no childbed fever, antiseptics, antibiotics, anaesthetics, vacuum tubes and transistors and printed circuits and integrated circuits, trains, planes, and automobiles, men on the Moon, the Moon, and probes to every other planet, orbiting laboratories and telescopes, microwaves and lasers, lasers everywhere, rare earth magnets and magnetic disks, plastic, genetic analysis and manipulation, the green revolution (Norman Borlaug, the man who save a billion lives), radar and sonar and ADF and GPS, weather forecasting that gets it right, refrigeration and air conditioning, computers, printers, networks, embedded microcontrollers everywhere, synthetic fabrics, electricity, optical fiber, carbon fiber, aluminium, nuclear energy, running hot and cold water, flush toilets, sewer systems, cities with air you can't see, electric razors, hair dryers, air bags and crumple zones, and, oh yes, that internet thing.

This is you your tiny-minded prophet calls a myth. This is what he would have you throw away, simply because of his contempt for the intellect of his fellow man.

I tell you: No.

How could it go on forever though? We've made tremendous progress yes, but all good things come to an end. All civilizations rise and fall. This progress can't go on forever, or do you believe it can?