Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

It might. Let’s take a look at what Raffaele’s dairy which mentions that.


So far so good, but maybe we should check the timeline for events that can be verified.

5:45 – Jovana Popovic stops by RS apartment to ask for a ride to the bus station.
6:27 – The film Amelie was launced to play on RS’s computer.
8:35 – Expected end of Amelie movie if played without interruption.
8:42 – RS receives phone call from father and tells him about leak under sink.

Well, RS is clearly wrong about both the time he and Amanda left the cottage and the time they returned to his house. It is possible that Raffaele has no real memory of the whole day and evening of November 1, 2007. It is also possible that sometime during the viewing of the film they decided to stop the film and shop for dinner. (note to self, or any one else interested, is it possible to document on a computer when a film was stopped ?).

If you compare the expected end of Amelie with the actual (was it 21:10 ? ) you'll get the total time the film was on pause. (I don't think pausing events get recorded anywhere.) It's possible they shopped during some of that time.

The shopping, preparation, cooking, doing the dishes and subsequent pipe leak would all have to be accomplished by 8:42 pm.

Shopping - maybe yes. But for the rest of your list - not at all.
e.g. considering the leak - it's enough for it to start before 8:42. And it could start well before any serious cooking or doing dishes.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

Why should we not cite Candace Dempsey? She used the court transcripts. She was the only American reporter to cover the Supreme Court hearing, IIRC. I was told at another board that I would learn that she is not a reliable source, but every time I have looked into a fact, it has checked out.

You check what you want. I will take a quicker decision and not consider her at all, I would only check the other sources.
I will not enter details on what she gets wrong, just tell you that I base my conclusion on having discussed with her for a year on her blog. She is not reliable. In fact she is a purely fictional author. I won't consider her as a source of information.

 

[Katody Matrass]

But.... I am wrong on what?

Amanda was not at Raffaele's wehn she got the message and answeres, that is for sure. There is nothing to guess. I can't be wrong on this, and this is the only observation.

That's hilarious, because you're not only wrong that she wasn't at Raffaele's when she answered, you're also wrong that you can't be wrong.
I guess we should consider you a fictional author from now on

 

[act1roson]

Again, from Perugia Shock regarding cell phone usage incorrectly pinpointing the location of cell phones, and the usage of cell records to one's advantage only when it suits the objective:

""....."Patrick's lawyer is very precise, and he recalled on what the accusation to Amanda lies. She lied. She said that she received Patrick's SMS at Raffaele's place. And she instead the cell network says that she was by piazza Grimana. She's been caught lying.........Here we have to recall that this was exactly the proof against Patrick. He said that he was at the pub. But the cell network was placing him by piazza Grimana. the cell network is a machine and, like all machines,is stupid. At the end the understood that the machine was wrong and Patrick was telling the truth.........But they alread forgot. Here we are again. The same machine, the same mistake. The same people who made the mistake of believing that machine are doing it again. The ones who managed to save themselves from that mistake are trying to convict someone else with exactly the same wrong information."

 

[Machiavelli]

She was the only American reporter to cover the Supreme Court hearing, IIRC.

By the way considereing that Supreme Court hearings don't exist, there are instead Supreme Court sessions that are closed to the public, and Candace Dempsey reported from the lobby of the Supreme Court ruling - there is a reporter a native from Seattle who covered all (but two) the trial hearings in Perugia, her name is Andrea Vogt. She also reported about the investigation and the pre-trial. She also understands a bit more whats going on when she is in a room where people are speaking Italian.

 

[Jungle Jim]

I agree that Massei's explanation is poor. We can consider 2 scenarios:
Either she was at home and her phone connected to an unusual cell or she was outside, but not for work.

It is doubtful that her cell connected to a cell tower not in its range of operations (but I’m no expert, just going by the Massei report). The alternative is that she was, in fact, somewhere in the center of town that did connect to a cell tower servicing that area.

That's interesting. You think Patrick was involved somehow? I wonder what was his explanation of the SMS. Where was he when he sent it, and what was in the message according to him?

I love your perception. I honestly don’t know what to make of Patrick’s SMS to Amanda. The following is purely speculation and it has nothing to do with whether Amanda or Raffaele had anything to do with Meredith’s murder but here goes:

If Amanda was simply on her way to work when she received Patrick’s SMS message (even if it was two hours before the start of her shift), why not state that during the numerous opportunities she had to do so? Could it be because she was doing something that would be incriminating or merely embarrassing (e.g., buying drugs)?

According to Amanda, Patrick sent a text message to her saying not to come into work because no one was there. However, this test message was sent 45 minutes before he opened the pub. There is no factual evidence as to what the text message actually said. Is it possible the message said, “Sorry Amanda I couldn’t score the drugs you were looking for.”

Again this is pure speculation, but it does explain the inconsistencies in the narrative. It explains why Amanda did not say she was out of RS’s apartment when she received the text from Patrick. It explains why Massei may think she was on her way to work two hours before the start of her shift. It explains why Patrick would have texted her 45 minutes before he opened the pub.

 

[Jungle Jim]

If you compare the expected end of Amelie with the actual (was it 21:10 ? ) you'll get the total time the film was on pause. (I don't think pausing events get recorded anywhere.) It's possible they shopped during some of that time.

Shopping - maybe yes. But for the rest of your list - not at all.
e.g. considering the leak - it's enough for it to start before 8:42. And it could start well before any serious cooking or doing dishes.

Don't have a cite at hand but I recall the leak occurred while doing the dishes.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Interesting thing I noticed in Massei, maybe someone well versed in telecomunication (or logic) can explain it to me:

About Raffaele's house:
Now it's in range:

The area around the defendant’s home was reached by a very strong signal radiated from the Via Berardi sector 7 cell, indicated as being the ‚best server cell‛ with regard to Sollecito’s house; furthermore the signals of other cells are also powerful, respectively that with a pylon in Piazza Lupattelli sector 8 and that with a pylon in Via dell’Acquilla-Torre dell’Acquedotto sectors 3 and 9.

And now when Amanda receives SMS from Patrick it's suddenly out of range:

20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house.

And now in range again:

12.08.44 (lasted 68 seconds) Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006; the mobile phone connects to the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell (which covers Sollecito’s house)

12:11:54 (4 seconds): another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number (the cell used is the one in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, thus compatible with Sollecito’s house)

12:12:35 (lasting 36 seconds) Romanelli Filomena calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590); Amanda receives the call connecting to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 (still at Raffaele’s house)

What am I missing?

 

[Machiavelli]

That's hilarious, because you're not only wrong that she wasn't at Raffaele's when she answered, you're also wrong that you can't be wrong.
I guess we should consider you a fictional author from now on

Yes my apologizes. I correct the previous information as I was thinking only to the 8:18 incoming sms, this is what I was talking about in the previous post, when I said: Amanda is not telling the truth about being at Raffaele, and she was somewhere else doing something else. So, she was not at Raffaele's at 8:18 for sure, and I can't be wrong on this. And I don't know where she was: by the way if you recall in her testimony where she tells about it please quote it, because it's the first time I deal with the issue of her whereabouts before 8:35 and I'm curious.

There is something that doesn't add up now and I realize it observing this timings: Amanda and Raffaele already had finished dinner at 8:42. In court she explained they discovered tha water spill under the sink only after dinner, and that turned out to be before 8:42. Do you think they previously bought their dinner outside?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

More seeds of doubt arise from the histrionic flights of fancy propagated by people like you. Do you seriously imagine that an ordinary Seattle family can employ "a team of people who could blog 24 hours"? The Knox family have been bankrupted by this case; not by paying for a "P.R. machine" but by legal fees and travel costs. As I said in my earlier posting, they were also forced to hire a P.R. consultant, but only because of the malicious media campaign against Amanda.

Amen. You said it, brother. Amanda's family is not rich. What money they can afford goes to the lawyers in Italy and their own expenses. They don't have the resources to be paying all kinds of consultants for collateral work. FOA is a loosely organized group of volunteers who are not paid by anyone.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Did Barbie Nadeau footnote that reference on page 105 of her book and, if so, can you supply where the reference was from?

Did Nadeau footnote anything?

This is a persistent rumor that has never been confirmed or denied. It is one of those unsolved mysteries, like what really happened to the computer hard drives, and why is it that the police recorded every interview except Amanda and Raffaele's on the night of Nov. 5-6.

 

[Malkmus]

Machiavelli,

Why should we not cite Candace Dempsey? She used the court transcripts. She was the only American reporter to cover the Supreme Court hearing, IIRC. I was told at another board that I would learn that she is not a reliable source, but every time I have looked into a fact, it has checked out.

Perhaps Machiavelli has confused Candace with Barbie Nadeau, the author whose book contains numerous factual errors.

 

[Katody Matrass]

It is doubtful that her cell connected to a cell tower not in its range of operations (but I’m no expert, just going by the Massei report). The alternative is that she was, in fact, somewhere in the center of town that did connect to a cell tower servicing that area.



I love your perception. I honestly don’t know what to make of Patrick’s SMS to Amanda. The following is purely speculation and it has nothing to do with whether Amanda or Raffaele had anything to do with Meredith’s murder but here goes:

If Amanda was simply on her way to work when she received Patrick’s SMS message (even if it was two hours before the start of her shift), why not state that during the numerous opportunities she had to do so? Could it be because she was doing something that would be incriminating or merely embarrassing (e.g., buying drugs)?

According to Amanda, Patrick sent a text message to her saying not to come into work because no one was there. However, this test message was sent 45 minutes before he opened the pub. There is no factual evidence as to what the text message actually said. Is it possible the message said, “Sorry Amanda I couldn’t score the drugs you were looking for.”

Again this is pure speculation, but it does explain the inconsistencies in the narrative. It explains why Amanda did not say she was out of RS’s apartment when she received the text from Patrick. It explains why Massei may think she was on her way to work two hours before the start of her shift. It explains why Patrick would have texted her 45 minutes before he opened the pub.

I like the speculation, but now it's basis (Amanda was outside when receiving the SMS) looks not so strong to me anymore. It's a pity we have so little sources on Patrick's testimony. Especially the opening of the pub at 9 pm looks strangely late for me.

 

[RWVBWL]

Did Barbie Nadeau footnote that reference on page 105 of her book and, if so, can you supply where the reference was from?

Hi christianahannah,
One of the hardest parts while referencing both "Angel Face" and "Murder in Italy" is that both authors DO NOT footnote where the reference is from that they discuss.
With this in mind,
I went to page xiii where in Barbie Nadeau discusses "A Note on the Sources."

"Most of the material in this book comes directly from official court materials, which are available only in Italian. All references to forensic evidence are based on the transcripts of court testimony and the ten-thousand page crime dossier known as the Digital Archive. The archive includes police reports, photo's, and most of the interrogation transcripts, as well as Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito's prison writings and intercepts of their visiting room conversations. I also refer to PowerPoint presentations, slide shows, and other exhibits presented in court by key witnesses for both the prosecution and the defence. Rudy Guede's testimony comes from interviews with his lawyers and official transcripts of both his fast-track and his appellate trials. The rest of the information about the trial was garnered by my attendance at every session of the 11 month trial of Knox and Sollecito, except for 2 sessions in mid-June 2009. In addition, I viewed roughly 10 hours of video taken during the crime scene investigation and listened to audiotapes of Amanda's and Raffaele's interrogations in prison and the Skype call to Rudy Guede in Germany." ETC, ETC, ETC...

Re-reading this preface again the other day, christianahannah, I feel that Barbie Nadeau has written A LOT of valuable information in "Angel Face" and any person that is truly interested in what happened the night that Meredith Kercher had her life brutally taken from her should have this book, along with Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy", in their reference collection...

Have a pleasant rest of the day,
RWVBWL

PS-Here is another gem that I recently re-read was on page 27 of "Angel Face":
"After she was arrested, the police set a trap for Amanda by telling her that she had tested positive for HIV. This sort of psychological trickery is commonly used by investigators in Italy to illicit a confession.' etc...

It was from this passage that I learned the the police had used the false HIV results as a trap...

PSS-As Malkmus mentions above, there are a numerous factual errors in it though, but I feel there it has a lot of good information also...

 

[pilot padron]

London John: "I'm suggesting that they are not setting up advocacy groups, or paying for bloggers, or lobbying politicians, or planting media stories."

So can we take it that you believe that Gogerty Marriott is carrying out some or all of these activities on behalf of Knox and her family?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hi halides

Again a pleasure.

Your concern is understood, and yes, you are correct.
I would not like to attempt *to document* payment to bloggers

But you did see L.J's wording to include the essential some or all that I have reproduced above, did you not ??

The some that I have no problem believing are:

1) Mr Marriott contacting Senator Cantwell (a politician) and urging her on her fruitless, IMHO demeaning, endeavors with Sec Clinton.

2) Based on actual statements from Ms Nadeau about restrictions placed on access to family for all but 'approved' media, as well as a careful reading of Marriott's carefully *parsed* intentionally sketchy web statement:

"Gogerty Marriott has sought to relieve as much of the media pressure from the family’s shoulders as possible."

as well as my personal *opinion* that US media coverage on the whole reeks of PR influenced, one sided, rebuttal prohibited, 'dog and pony', PR policed and scripted type productions.

Again *opinion*, but additionally Mr Marriott as you may know is an ex CBS employee.
The probably, in my opinion, most biased, one sided TV activity to date was the CBS Special that so influenced Ms Moore.

3) The last of the activities that I have no problem believing Marriott carries out is influencing other media sources such as newspapers.
I will spare my readers lengthy supporting reasons, because this *in my opinion* is so basic a function for any PR Firm.
Interested in further examples, please read the West Seattle Herald which *in my opinion* has become little more than a "Amanda and Edda Forever" type newsletter.
As the local hometown fish wrap, I understand and accept this, but reserve right to *opine* about it.

Again, halides, my response was that it was logical to believe Marriott carried out some of the activities cited by L.J..

I believe that to be a fully warranted and supported as above, *personal belief*.
I strongly stand by it, and hope it meets the high standards of this evidence based, but personal opinion permitting Forum.

I sincerely hope you do not have further difficulty with that.

As a newbie in awe of intellects and abilities superior to mine, I wish certainly not to distract such personalities into the unnecessary 'mole whacking' you cite again.

Additionally, as counselled by Mary, who I also have much respect, I am carefully segregating fact from opinion, and have as carefully as possible laid out the supporting reasons for my *personal belief*.
Again; for some of the aforementioned activities in question.

Best regards

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It is doubtful that her cell connected to a cell tower not in its range of operations (but I’m no expert, just going by the Massei report). The alternative is that she was, in fact, somewhere in the center of town that did connect to a cell tower servicing that area.



I love your perception. I honestly don’t know what to make of Patrick’s SMS to Amanda. The following is purely speculation and it has nothing to do with whether Amanda or Raffaele had anything to do with Meredith’s murder but here goes:

If Amanda was simply on her way to work when she received Patrick’s SMS message (even if it was two hours before the start of her shift), why not state that during the numerous opportunities she had to do so? Could it be because she was doing something that would be incriminating or merely embarrassing (e.g., buying drugs)?

According to Amanda, Patrick sent a text message to her saying not to come into work because no one was there. However, this test message was sent 45 minutes before he opened the pub. There is no factual evidence as to what the text message actually said. Is it possible the message said, “Sorry Amanda I couldn’t score the drugs you were looking for.”

Again this is pure speculation, but it does explain the inconsistencies in the narrative. It explains why Amanda did not say she was out of RS’s apartment when she received the text from Patrick. It explains why Massei may think she was on her way to work two hours before the start of her shift. It explains why Patrick would have texted her 45 minutes before he opened the pub.

Even if the court could prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Amanda was not at Raffaele's apartment when she got the text message, the fact is that a witness saw her at his apartment, and spoke to her, less than half an hour later.

She wasn't a junkie on the prowl for a fix. She was a casual user of cannabis, which Raffaele had on hand.

The truth, most likely, is that Patrick realized early on that it was going to be a sleepy night, Amanda was at Raffaele's place, just as she said, and the repeater, which would not support a voice stream or even a single carrier bar, was nevertheless able to send a < 10 kb text packet.

This is like the Harry Potter book. Why would she lie about that? She didn't. It was right where she said it was, just as her clothes were lying on her bed, right where she said they were, even though the police told the media for months that they were missing.

 

[Machiavelli]

Perhaps Machiavelli has confused Candace with Barbie Nadeau, the author whose book contains numerous factual errors.

The English speaking reports I consider fairly good factually are only two: one is Andrea Vogt, the only accurate English speaker daily reporter, and as a book giving a whole picture, the only factually (fairly) correct summary is "darkness descending" which is almost entirely based on information collected and analysed by Luciano Grarofano.
"Fairly good" report doesn't mean they are "sources".

 

[RWVBWL]

The English speaking reports I consider fairly good factually are only two: one is Andrea Vogt, the only accurate English speaker daily reporter, and as a book giving a whole picture, the only factually (fairly) correct summary is "darkness descending" which is almost entirely based on information collected and analysed by Luciano Grarofano.
"Fairly good" report doesn't mean they are "sources".

Thanks for the tip Machiavelli,
I will grab a copy of "Darkness Descending" soon...

On another note, I found it interesting that you were dismissing Candace Dempsey's well written book "Murder in Italy", for the other day when I was looking for info on the location of where Meredith Kercher's 2 cell phones were found, "Murder in Italy" gave me the most detailed information that I could quickly find...

Have a good day,
RWVBWL

 

[HumanityBlues]

The English speaking reports I consider fairly good factually are only two: one is Andrea Vogt, the only accurate English speaker daily reporter, and as a book giving a whole picture, the only factually (fairly) correct summary is "darkness descending" which is almost entirely based on information collected and analysed by Luciano Grarofano.
"Fairly good" report doesn't mean they are "sources".

One has to wonder if you've actually read Darkness Descending after that comment. Wow.

 

[Jungle Jim]

From Katody Matrass:

Interesting thing I noticed in Massei, maybe someone well versed in telecomunication (or logic) can explain it to me:

About Raffaele's house:
Now it's in range:
Originally Posted by Massei
The area around the defendant’s home was reached by a very strong signal radiated from the Via Berardi sector 7 cell, indicated as being the ‚best server cell‛ with regard to Sollecito’s house; furthermore the signals of other cells are also powerful, respectively that with a pylon in Piazza Lupattelli sector 8 and that with a pylon in Via dell’Acquilla-Torre dell’Acquedotto sectors 3 and 9.
And now when Amanda receives SMS from Patrick it's suddenly out of range:
Quote:
20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house.
And now in range again:
Quote:
12.08.44 (lasted 68 seconds) Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006; the mobile phone connects to the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell (which covers Sollecito’s house)
Quote:
12:11:54 (4 seconds): another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number (the cell used is the one in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, thus compatible with Sollecito’s house)
Quote:
12:12:35 (lasting 36 seconds) Romanelli Filomena calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590); Amanda receives the call connecting to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 (still at Raffaele’s house)
What am I missing?

Good work. So it would appear that Amanda could have received the text message from Patrick while at Raffaele's apartment.