Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Jungle Jim]

It depends how you define "apparently".

If you believe Curatolo, Curatolo saw her out of the house that night. If you believe the claim that the crime scene was cleaned up or staged, then maybe you believe the claim that Amanda helped clean it up or stage it. If you believe her internalised false statement then you believe she somehow magically got to her house, heard Meredith screaming and then woke up back at Raffaele's. If you don't buy any of those, then I'm aware of no reason at all to think that Amanda' didn't spend the night at Raffaele's.

I define apparently as: Amanda received the text from Patrick when she was not at Raffaele's according to her cell phone records.

 

[loverofzion]

It depends how you define "apparently".

If you believe Curatolo, Curatolo saw her out of the house that night. If you believe the claim that the crime scene was cleaned up or staged, then maybe you believe the claim that Amanda helped clean it up or stage it. If you believe her internalised false statement then you believe she somehow magically got to her house, heard Meredith screaming and then woke up back at Raffaele's. If you don't buy any of those, then I'm aware of no reason at all to think that Amanda' didn't spend the night at Raffaele's.

"Internalized false statement"?
How do you arrive at that?
Sure sounded like a deeply FELT memory to me.

Again, she didn't have to "magically" get to her cottage from Raffaelo's.
It was only a few minutes walk.

 

[Fine]

I'm not sure that Massei threw out Lalli's TOD. I think it was Professor Introna's TOD estimate which the court did not believe to be sustainable. The various expert opinions and analysis (prosecution, defense and independent as appointed by GIP) show how difficult narrowing down TOD is due to many factors.

I have also read somewhere that Meredith had not much of an appetite the beginning of the evening (maybe testimony from Micheli Motivations?). It is possible that she may not have eaten at exactly the same time as the other girls. My personal experience at a gathering of friends is that everyone eats whenever throughout the event unless the gathering is a formal one. At informal gatherings of more than two people I doubt I could be specific as to what time anyone ate or how much (I will try to locate where I read the information about Meredith's appetite - it may also have been Murder In Italy which I finished a few weeks ago?).

_______________________

Dr. Lalli performed the autopsy on Sunday, November 4. The autopsy was a lengthy procedure, lasting eight hours. A few days later---on Wednesday or Thursday---he submitted his written report to the Court. His estimated time of death: 10:00 PM - Midnight, November 1, 2007.
///

 

[christianahannah]

Micheli has Sophie at 6PM or earlier, Massei has Amy saying 5:30-6PM, and now you have Dempsey reporting about the same time. It seems to be a consensus.

I agree a consensus of the approximate time of dinner, however, as to Meredith's eating who knows?

 

[christianahannah]

_______________________

Dr. Lalli performed the autopsy on Sunday, November 4. The autopsy was a lengthy procedure, lasting eight hours. A few days later---on Wednesday or Thursday---he submitted his written report to the Court. His estimated time of death: 10:00 PM - Midnight, November 1, 2007.
///

Did Dr. Lalli testify to the same in court?

 

[Dan O.]

We seem to have conflicting reports on what Dr. Lalli said about the time of death. Lets play a little game and see who can come up with the best reference for what Lalli actually says.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

We seem to have conflicting reports on what Dr. Lalli said about the time of death. Lets play a little game and see who can come up with the best reference for what Lalli actually says.

I wonder if he knew what time she ate her dinner.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

We seem to have conflicting reports on what Dr. Lalli said about the time of death. Lets play a little game and see who can come up with the best reference for what Lalli actually says.

To me, the pathology report was the most interesting new information to come out of the Motivation document. I was astonished to learn that Meredith's stomach was full but her duodenum/intestine was empty, because that clearly suggests a TOD no more than 3 hours from her last meal, and yet it seemed that the authorities had great difficulty establishing TOD. Here is how early media coverage evolved:

November 7, 2007:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2821154.ece

Pathologists have put the time of death as between midnight and 2am.

November 9, 2007:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2841412.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

The judge said that the pathologist, Luca Lalli, had established that Ms Kercher’s death had taken place "at 11pm at the earliest and at the latest one hour after, with a time frame between 10pm and midnight". The cause of death was "haemorrhage from a neck wound after a blow from a sharp and pointed weapon".

November 26, 2007:

Miss Kercher, 21, from Coulsdon, south London, was found with her throat cut in her house in Perugia on Friday November 2. However, investigators have still not been able to conclusively prove the time or cause of her death.

[...]

Dr Lalli said he had carefully recorded the original autopsy with photographs and video.

However, it has emerged that Dr Lalli was only able to get access to Miss Kercher's corpse more than 24 hours after the crime was committed.

Consequently, the time of her death had to be guessed from the remains of food in her digestive system.

January 31, 2008:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3282588.ece

Forensic scientists working on the case also said they had revised the time of Ms Kercher's death, previously put at between 10pm and midnight on November 1, to between 9pm and 4am on November 2.

 

[Draca]

It depends how you define "apparently".

If you believe Curatolo, Curatolo saw her out of the house that night. If you believe the claim that the crime scene was cleaned up or staged, then maybe you believe the claim that Amanda helped clean it up or stage it. If you believe her internalised false statement then you believe she somehow magically got to her house, heard Meredith screaming and then woke up back at Raffaele's. If you don't buy any of those, then I'm aware of no reason at all to think that Amanda' didn't spend the night at Raffaele's.

Looking at the work of false confession expert Saul Kassin I would say that Amanda's false witness statement falls into what he calls 'Compliant False Confessions'.

"In compliant false confessions, the innocent suspect acquiesces in order to escape from a stressful situation, avoid punishment, or gain a promised or implied reward. In these cases, basically, the confession is an act of compliance by a suspect who comes to believe that the short-term benefits of confession outweigh the long-term costs. This phenomenon was dramatically illustrated in the 1989 Central Park jogger case, where five New York City teenagers confessed after lengthy interrogations, each claiming he expected to go home afterward. All the boys were convicted and sent to prison, only to be exonerated in 2002 when the real rapist gave a confession that was confirmed by DNA evidence."


insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/09/4645348-the-mystery-in-rock-hill-a-defense-witness-weighs-in


youtube.com/watch?v=JDRRwFfJKkw

 

[JREF2010]

Do you know if it was disputed whether Amanda was away from Raffaele's flat during the receiving of Patrick's message? And was it disputed that this cell tower ping could not reach Raffaele's flat?

And, of course, her being away from his flat during that time does not make her a murderer, however, if her testimony is inconsistent with technical data, this could be a reason why suspicion was drawn to her (though I doubt the technical data would have been available before her questioning on November 5, but I am not sure). I don't even know if Amanda declared that she was or was not away from Raffaele's flat during that time (the receiving of Patrick's message).

I'm not clear on the cell pings and possibilities. The only article I read of the Cell Tower Expert was on Franks site and he insinuated people were sleeping thru it.
Massei's Report lists the locations but I didn't read if it was disputed.

Amanda repeatedly said on the stand she was at Raffaeles when the text arrived. (Thoughtfuls translation). It was Carlo Pacelli and Mignini asking. Maresca asked about the text but not location. But again, should it matter? NO...imo.

Chris is right, in as much as Massei is. Meredith was alive up to 9pm, so whether Raffaele remembers the earlier hours precisely or if Amanda was remembering correctly, or if they were playing basketball...
it doesn't matter what happened earlier than 9pm as far as where everyone was in relate to the crime. The debated ToD never goes earlier than 9pm.

Massei uses logic, similar to Chris, Massei's report stated that the 00:58 pc activity is meaningless because the crime was done by then.

"Same / difference", right?

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian2, someone wrote a post on the Seattle P-I that relates to what you have written here. Some of it is kind of nutty, but it's thought-provoking.

Justinian2, someone wrote a post on the Seattle P-I that relates to what you have written here. Some of it is kind of nutty, but it's thought-provoking.

Posted by jumpoffab at 9/29/2010 11:45 a.m.

I sure hope some day the Italians get those agents in the CIA for their crimes of kidnapping and throw away the key! It would be fun to debate with the conservitive nose picking souless sociopaths about the agents guilt using their own crap against them over and over: they were convicted by the authorities.. so: they are guilty as charged!
Not that that will happen because these creeps are hidding out somewhere in their southern trailtrash land where all the scum go to hid after they have commited some crime overseas be it child killing or kidnapping. If it had not been for the holly MF pentigon/CIA waisting our tax dollers this girl would not have been convictied. SO they are not making us safe- they are a cult, one that is burning tax dollars faster then the fed can print them.

The ski lift: dozen people
The Iraq firing range: two agents.
The Kidnapping

Someone should have paid for the life lost and it should not be some college student.

http://www.seattlepi.com/soundoff/co...=427522&page=2

It also reminds one of the crucifixion of Christ when the crowd asked for mercy for the thief. Beyond comprehension!

If this is a revenge for the CIA thing, then suddenly it is not beyond comprehension.

 

[colonelhall]

Regarding the CIA:
"SO they are not making us safe"

"If this is a revenge for the CIA thing, then suddenly it is not beyond comprehension."

Do you think that this could possibly be extended to the FBI?
If that were so, it would clear up the mystery of why poor old Steve Moore got the boot.
An assistant safety officer for an American school with students in Italy!! From the dastardly FBI!! How safe is that?

 

[colonelhall]

RoseMontague: "Micheli has Sophie at 6PM or earlier, Massei has Amy saying 5:30-6PM, and now you have Dempsey reporting about the same time. It seems to be a consensus."

Hmm! Micheli, Massei and Dempsey - the great triumvirate. Now, remind me, Micheli and Massei, are they food bloggers too?

 

[Chris C]

Massei uses logic, similar to Chris, Massei's report stated that the 00:58 pc activity is meaningless because the crime was done by then.

"Same / difference", right?

Well the text message from patrick is meaningless because you have 2 witnesses and the phone that puts Knox at Sollecito's home after the message was sent and while Meredith was still alive. Where as the pc activity isn't meaningless because the prosecution is claiming that meredith died a little over an hour before that, and the crime scene has to be staged, cleaned, her body has to be sexually assaulted and the phones have to be dumped in 1 hour.

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

Looking at the work of false confession expert Saul Kassin I would say that Amanda's false witness statement falls into what he calls 'Compliant False Confessions'.

"In compliant false confessions, the innocent suspect acquiesces in order to escape from a stressful situation, avoid punishment, or gain a promised or implied reward. In these cases, basically, the confession is an act of compliance by a suspect who comes to believe that the short-term benefits of confession outweigh the long-term costs. This phenomenon was dramatically illustrated in the 1989 Central Park jogger case, where five New York City teenagers confessed after lengthy interrogations, each claiming he expected to go home afterward. All the boys were convicted and sent to prison, only to be exonerated in 2002 when the real rapist gave a confession that was confirmed by DNA evidence."


insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/09/4645348-the-mystery-in-rock-hill-a-defense-witness-weighs-in


youtube.com/watch?v=JDRRwFfJKkw

http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/09/4645348-the-mystery-in-rock-hill-a-defense-witness-weighs-in

 

[Fine]

Did Dr. Lalli testify to the same in court?

___________________

Well, judging from the Motivations Report, Dr. Lalli doesn't seem to say exactly in his court testimony when Meredith died. Instead, he gave the Court an indexed estimated time of death, indexed to the time Meredith completed eating her last meal. In his opinion, Meredith died between 2 and 4 hours after eating her last meal. On page 116 of the Motivations Report (English Translation)---however--- he also says this:

" He [Dr. Lalli] added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish 'by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors' ".

So, in effect, Dr. Lalli seems to be saying what many other experts have said elsewhere. Without additional research on how these other "factors" influence the digestive process, whatever estimated time of death is proposed---calculated from digestion status---would not be reliable.

///

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

___________________

Well, judging from the Motivations Report, Dr. Lalli doesn't seem to say exactly in his court testimony when Meredith died. Instead, he gave the Court an indexed estimated time of death, indexed to the time Meredith completed eating her last meal. In his opinion, Meredith died between 2 and 4 hours after eating her last meal. On page 116 of the Motivations Report (English Translation)---however--- he also says this:

" He [Dr. Lalli] added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"".

So, in effect, Dr. Lalli seems to be saying what many other experts have said elsewhere. Without addition research on how these other "factors" influence the digestive process, whatever estimated time of death is proposed---calculated from digestion status---would not be reliable.

///

Sure. Unusual circumstances can slow the digestive process, which, for Massei and his online acolytes, is proof that Meredith was killed after 11:30 pm even though her duodenum was empty. Similarly, it's possible to have a false negative with TMB, which, for the same group, proves the luminol footprints were made with Meredith's blood even though the TMB test was negative in every case.

But some of us require a higher standard of proof, unreasonable as that may seem.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

If this is a revenge for the CIA thing, then suddenly it is not beyond comprehension.

It's not. The problem isn't that simple. This has to do with how the authorities manipulate the media and the public, and how people defer to the judgment of authorities even when it should be obvious that the authorities are wrong.

Back in the 1980s, a woman named Kelly Michaels was convicted of child sex abuse charges that were unsupported by evidence and utterly implausible. It happened in New Jersey, an American court and an American defendant. No CIA score to settle. The jury laid aside common sense and believed what the authorities told them to believe, even though it made no sense.

 

[colonelhall]

"This has to do with how the authorities manipulate the media and the public,"

I thought that it was to do with how American television companies, such as CBS, and P.R. companies manipulate the public.

In my opinion, the free access that has been afforded to the Knox P.R. machine and the total absence of any serious questioning of their claims, is an absolute disgrace.

 

[Antony]

(msg #8559)
In my opinion, the free access that has been afforded to the Knox P.R. machine and the total absence of any serious questioning of their claims, is an absolute disgrace.

What "Knox P.R. machine"?

Given the existence of such websites as PMF and TJMK, doesn't the absence of serious questioning tell you something?