Gravity defying buildings? :D

[Java Man]

42,000 gallons of diesel fuel was inside WTC7 & it fueled the fire that was already there from WTC1's burning debris.

Chewy, what burning debris? We are talking pre-collapse here. The molten metal seen flowing out of the window. There were 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel on that floor? Where were they stored and why didn't they blow up with the jet fuel?

 

[Java Man]

You cannot compare the two. Temperature cannot be decided by looking at two dissimmilar items. I cannot tell the temperature of a fire by looking at the sun for comparison.

Oh really? So you can't realize that the Sun is hotter than a fire even as it's burning your retina? Get serious! People don't have a bionic implant in their eyes to do that, but certainly determine the Sun is hotter than a flame.

Not to mention the Sun isn't a fire.

Also, a yellow flame can range from 800 deg. F to 1800 deg. F. It only will change colors when it becomes superheated. IE: Blue flames. Also, you can get yellow and blue flames from the same object burning. Ie: wood, plastics, etc.

Please post a reference for your yellow flame temperature range.

In regards to the yellow and blue flames the color changes as the gas cools. Once again color vs temperature.

You color comparison is flawed. Go back and try again.

Once again you're trying to deny things rather than have a serious conversation. You're mixing office fires with nuclear reactions and calling values off without reference. Don't try to derail us with such lame counter arguments. Listen to your own advice and go back and try again.

 

[dafydd]

Why do I need to do that? And what would be the relevance to your point? Certainly burning can take place at the same time as melting. Take a piece of plastic for example and set it on fire.

Now in regards to the WTC. Would you then say that the molten metal we see pouring was molten and burning too? That sounds like thermite in action. Are you sure you want me to pursue proof that burning and melting can take place at the same time?

Oh dear.You are funny.

 

[dafydd]

Oh really? So you can't realize that the Sun is hotter than a fire even as it's burning your retina? Get serious! People don't have a bionic implant in their eyes to do that, but certainly determine the Sun is hotter than a flame.

Not to mention the Sun isn't a fire.



Please post a reference for your yellow flame temperature range.

In regards to the yellow and blue flames the color changes as the gas cools. Once again color vs temperature.



Once again you're trying to deny things rather than have a serious conversation. You're mixing office fires with nuclear reactions and calling values off without reference. Don't try to derail us with such lame counter arguments. Listen to your own advice and go back and try again.

What are your qualifications in this field?

 

[Sabretooth]

You cannot compare the two. Temperature cannot be decided by looking at two dissimmilar items. I cannot tell the temperature of a fire by looking at the sun for comparison.

Oh really? So you can't realize that the Sun is hotter than a fire even as it's burning your retina? Get serious! People don't have a bionic implant in their eyes to do that, but certainly determine the Sun is hotter than a flame.

Not to mention the Sun isn't a fire.

um...Tri was pointing out that you can't compare two dissimilar items...apples and horses.

Read what he said...of course the sun is hotter...but you cannot gauge the temp of a fire [on earth] by looking at the sun for a reference.

Thanks for making his point, though.

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Chewy, what burning debris? We are talking pre-collapse here. The molten metal seen flowing out of the window. There were 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel on that floor? Where were they stored and why didn't they blow up with the jet fuel?

Molten metal from WTC7? LOL, what a fantasy! There were diesel generators inside WTC7, so yes there would be diesel fuel for them in storage tanks. They were stored in the lower levels, & no, diesel fuel doesn't blow up when lines are severed or the tanks are smashed. Diesel fuel emits heavy black smoke when lit, that's why there was alot of black smoke coming from the building. You know nothing about diesel fuel & what it's ignition point is nor are you a firefighter.

Good luck trying to prove that a CD occured with WTC7. Every time you try to make that claim, I'm gonna LMAO!

 

[Java Man]

Read what he said...of course the sun is hotter...but you cannot gauge the temp of a fire [on earth] by looking at the sun for a reference.

But I'm not gauging the temperature of the fire by looking at the sun. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by looking at the color the molten metal has and comparing it to know values at said color. I'm not gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to the color of the flame.

The flame color is a reference. Because we do know what type of color certain flames have and what temperature they're at. So the color of the flame is to reference that the color on the image is OK. If the flame were blue we'd know there is something odd with the color calibration. But since the flame color is within expected values then we conclude the color calibration is OK. Which is also what we would expect from any decent video recorder doing the filming. Thus the color of the molten metal is also valid and a good reference to the temperature it was at. Bright yellow indicates very high temperature and way above that produced by conventional office fires.

 

[Java Man]

What are your qualifications in this field?

Two eyes and I'm not color blind.

Doesn't take much more to compare colors between those seen in the videos and a color card produced by the professionals who have more qualifications than you and I put together.

 

[Sabretooth]

But I'm not gauging the temperature of the fire by looking at the sun. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by looking at the color the molten metal has and comparing it to know values at said color. I'm not gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to the color of the flame.

The flame color is a reference. Because we do know what type of color certain flames have and what temperature they're at. So the color of the flame is to reference that the color on the image is OK. If the flame were blue we'd know there is something odd with the color calibration. But since the flame color is within expected values then we conclude the color calibration is OK. Which is also what we would expect from any decent video recorder doing the filming. Thus the color of the molten metal is also valid and a good reference to the temperature it was at. Bright yellow indicates very high temperature and way above that produced by conventional office fires.

The conversation has been become quite diluted. So you'll have to clarify a bit:

What "molten metal color" are you comparing to what "fire color"?

Metal and fire colors are not one and the same. For instance, my wood burner in my garage produces orange/white flame and heat, but the iron stove will glow red when it is overheated.

If odd items are added to fire, such as plastics or rubber, those can produce entirely different color flames and heat levels. I think we all can agree that fires at WTC were not only burning off cherrywood desks and mahogany chairs, right?

If you already covered this, show me the post, please.

 

[triforcharity]

But I'm not gauging the temperature of the fire by looking at the sun. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by looking at the color the molten metal has and comparing it to know values at said color. I'm not gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to the color of the flame.

The flame color is a reference. Because we do know what type of color certain flames have and what temperature they're at. So the color of the flame is to reference that the color on the image is OK. If the flame were blue we'd know there is something odd with the color calibration. But since the flame color is within expected values then we conclude the color calibration is OK. Which is also what we would expect from any decent video recorder doing the filming. Thus the color of the molten metal is also valid and a good reference to the temperature it was at. Bright yellow indicates very high temperature and way above that produced by conventional office fires.

No, you've got it all wrong. You CANNOT gage the temperature of a metal by comparing it to a hydrocarbon fire. You just cannot do it.

You are comparing apples to B-2 Bombers. Sorry, it is a flawed comparison.

See here.
http://www.educationalelectronicsusa.com/c/fuels-VIII.htm

Here

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae569.cfm

Here

http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/3BA.html

Sorry, you cannot say that a metal is as hot as a flame, or hotter, just by looking at the color. Sorry, two dissimmilar items cannot be compared that way. Now, if you were comparing two hydrocarbon fires, yes, but not a hydrocarbon and metal, or HC and chemical, or any other combination.

 

[triforcharity]

Two eyes and I'm not color blind.

Doesn't take much more to compare colors between those seen in the videos and a color card produced by the professionals who have more qualifications than you and I put together.

Except for the fact that you fail to apply it properly. BTW, I am the guy who writes that kind of stuff. Your qualifications on fire are about the same as my skills in nuclear physics. Nil.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Bingo! we're finally getting to something. A source of heat higher than conventional office fires.

It's a late reply to this, but my 2 cents... It did not appear until long after the impact and fire got going, it was near a mechanical floor which I have read to be an uninterrupted power area. My personal opinions are that it was either a mixture of molten material (other than steel), or it was some kind of spark flow from the power source... Considering it was a lone event, significantly delayed and observed in only one of the towers, postulating thermite has been kind of a non-starter... Anyway... if you want to be really nit picky... Since many CD proponents believe that fire can't cause a skyscraper to collapse purely because it's the first and most catastrophic of it's kind, then by the same token they would need to accept that thermite is a non-starter since it has never been used in any kind of building demolition. To treat it different by all accounts would represent a double standard.

 

[Java Man]

No, you've got it all wrong. You CANNOT gage the temperature of a metal by comparing it to a hydrocarbon fire. You just cannot do it.

But you see if you read my post carefully you'll realize I'm saying that. I am NOT gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing ti to hydrocarbon fire. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to known brightness when heated. This temperature as a function of brightness was initially proposed by your camp, btw, to prove that you could not determine what type of metal was flowing out.

 

[Java Man]

Except for the fact that you fail to apply it properly.

I fail not. Sorry to clarify this again.

 

[tsig]

But I'm not gauging the temperature of the fire by looking at the sun. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by looking at the color the molten metal has and comparing it to know values at said color. I'm not gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to the color of the flame.

The flame color is a reference. Because we do know what type of color certain flames have and what temperature they're at. So the color of the flame is to reference that the color on the image is OK. If the flame were blue we'd know there is something odd with the color calibration. But since the flame color is within expected values then we conclude the color calibration is OK. Which is also what we would expect from any decent video recorder doing the filming. Thus the color of the molten metal is also valid and a good reference to the temperature it was at. Bright yellow indicates very high temperature and way above that produced by conventional office fires.

I guess this text is 1500⁰F

 

[CORed]

First off the color of the heated material is indifferent of the underlying metal.

Secondly the impurity argument works against you not for you. Impurities don't add brightness they diminish it. If "impurities" form on the top of the molten material they would "stain" its brightness. So that implies the temperature would have to be EVEN HIGHER for a given brilliance level.

So this "impurity" line you're playing now actually works against your position rather than for your position.

So, the color is determined solely by the temperature, not the material, but impurities change the color? Okay....

 

[T.A.M.]

But you see if you read my post carefully you'll realize I'm saying that. I am NOT gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing ti to hydrocarbon fire. I'm gauging the temperature of the metal by comparing it to known brightness when heated. This temperature as a function of brightness was initially proposed by your camp, btw, to prove that you could not determine what type of metal was flowing out.

I still stand by that claim. Based on color ALONE you cannot state what type of metal it is...period. That has not changed, and will not change.

What I also said, and also stand by, is that there other factors that can influence color...such as the BURNING of chemical salts, Emissivity, the mixing of large amounts of impurities or contaminants such as organics.

You have proven none of this incorrect. You have speculated with out proof that is not, but you have not proven it...not a bit.

TAM

Edit: It has also not been proven that the temperature did not reach 1800F at that particular spot, at that particular time. Oh contrare, your group would contend it did, but that it was thermite that caused it. The fact is, thermite is not the only thing that could raise the temperature to 1800F, you know it. You can claim that a regular office fire wouldn't, but that is based on what besides opinion? I am not saying the temp got that high, but I am saying there has been no proof it could not have, besides opinion (not that I have seen).

Hence, overall the video proves nothing, and nothing in terms of the type of metal can be gleaned from the video.

 

[Bullwinkle2009]

metals

Hi, Are we certain the flow of material is even a metal? hydraulic fluid is used in sealed cylinders that operate by pushing to expand or contract. One or more of these cylinders could have survived impact. Became heated and eventually ruptured releasing a fluid that ran following a course of least resistance. These fluids vary in color from clear to red. Depending on their reactions to exposure to heat their viscosity varies from water like to molasses. I do not wish to be too graphic but human bodies provide fuel to fires. They also produce liquid flows that become fuel when absorbed. They burn on their own at temps hot enough to melt many metals.
Each computer holds several pounds of metals. I think the contents of several damaged floors ended up on a lower more intact floor. People making cell calls were refering to the heat being generated on floors well beneath them. Fire moves from one side of a wall or floor to the other before it actually creates a hole.
Just things to consider
(Hey my conjectures are like anyone else's until endorsed or rebutted. )

 

[Dave Rogers]

Hi, Are we certain the flow of material is even a metal?

No. We have, really, no idea what it is. The truther claim that it's molten steel is based on the work of Steven Jones, who started from a hypothesis that thermite was the primary agent in the destruction of the twin towers (a hypothesis he has since suggested is in any case impossible), after which truthers looked for any evidence that might be interpreted as pointing to the presence of thermite anywhere in, under or near the twin towers before, during or after the collapses. They pointed to the flow of material and claimed that it must be molten steel, but in fact the sole motivation for this claim is that they want it to be molten steel. And, sadly, thet's where the trail ends; nobody has even hinted at a coherent hypothesis that explains a flow of molten steel from a corner of the building, significantly before the collapses and not even (if I recall correctly) in the area where collapse was initiated, in terms of thermite demolition devices.

Dave

 

[dafydd]

Two eyes and I'm not color blind.

Doesn't take much more to compare colors between those seen in the videos and a color card produced by the professionals who have more qualifications than you and I put together.

Why do wooists who know bugger all about a subject always think that they know more than an expert in the field? Is there a name for this condition?