NEADS in Rome NY was patheticly equipped.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Obviously terrorist act, wouldn't you agree?

100%!

 

[Dave Rogers]

Where would they be placed? On Bermuda itself? Get this clearly through your head. A US fighter stationed in Halifax (that's Canada) could have made it back to New York in time to intercept the planes.

Show your working, please. If it involves using the afterburners, be sure to check endurance.

Plus there isn't much eastward from New York than lots and lots of ocean. So anything "placed to intercept" something coming from the sea would be west of New York and thus capable of intercepting the jet liners which are east of its take off position.

So you're saying that the way to intercept bombers coming in from the ocean is to fly away from them? That's probably not the ideal intercept vector, though I'm not an expert in these things; I would have thought that flying towards them would be of some value.

Just like the Russian bombers from Bermuda. Which takes me back to Chewy's point which is actually supporting my position as just about everything is west of New York.

Except Russian bombers from Bermuda; in a recent poll of Bermuda-based Russian bomber pilots, 100% of them admitted to being east of New York. However, most airliners would be west of New York, and that's what the fighters didn't want to crash into.

Dave

 

[Java Man]

I was pointing out that the FAA and NEADS didn't know that Flight 77 was hijacked and heading for Washington for the whole time you were talking about. So questions like "You're telling us the US doesn't have a single aircraft able to intercept a subsonic jet liner in a whole 30 minutes?" are a little misleading: they didn't have that much notice.

American Airlines director new and grounded all flights then. Why didn't FAA and NEADS know? I figure airports would be wondering why flights were not pushing back from the gates anymore.

 

[excaza]

They must have been in on it. The Man strikes again.

 

[Java Man]

Show your working, please. If it involves using the afterburners, be sure to check endurance.

A modern fighter like the F18 could push 1.8 Mach no problem. That's enough speed to cover the 900km from Halifax in time to stop the attack. No need for burners.

away[/I] from them? That's probably not the ideal intercept vector, though I'm not an expert in these things; I would have thought that flying towards them would be of some value.

Away from them? If you're taking off from land they would be east of your position. Have you got the map backwards or did you just move from Washington DC to Washington State?

 

[Dave Rogers]

A modern fighter like the F18 could push 1.8 Mach no problem. That's enough speed to cover the 900km from Halifax in time to stop the attack. No need for burners.

I think you'll find the fighters available on 9/11 were F-15s and F-16s. What can they do without afterburners, and how long do they take to get to that speed?

Away from them? If you're taking off from land they would be east of your position. Have you got the map backwards or did you just move from Washington DC to Washington State?

You're the one claiming the fighters should have placed themselves west of New York to intercept an enemy coming in from the sea. Let's take a look, shall we?

So anything "placed to intercept" something coming from the sea would be west of New York

Yep, thought so. Standard truther protocol: say something stupid, then pretend somebody else said it.

Dave

 

[Java Man]

I think you'll find the fighters available on 9/11 were F-15s and F-16s. What can they do without afterburners, and how long do they take to get to that speed?

The F-15 can climb 10,000 m in 60 seconds. That would still leave 29 minutes for level supersonic flight to the location.

 

[Java Man]

You're the one claiming the fighters should have placed themselves west of New York to intercept an enemy coming in from the sea. Let's take a look, shall we?

Yes, unless the US has floating runways that are not aircraft carriers. Yes. A base on land could easily scramble jets with enough time to handle that.

 

[MikeW]

American Airlines director new and grounded all flights then. Why didn't FAA and NEADS know? I figure airports would be wondering why flights were not pushing back from the gates anymore.

American didn't know it was still in the air, they thought it was the 2nd plane into the towers. They didn't begin to wonder about that until 9:20-ish, and NEADs didn't hear about it until 9:34 (sources).

 

[Java Man]

American didn't know it was still in the air, they thought it was the 2nd plane into the towers. They didn't begin to wonder about that until 9:20-ish, and NEADs didn't hear about it until 9:34 (sources).

So you're telling us they thought the flight 77 was the second airplane into the towers instead of flight 175?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Yes, unless the US has floating runways that are not aircraft carriers. Yes. A base on land could easily scramble jets with enough time to handle that.

You're really not making a whole lot of sense here, you know. I pointed out that fighters heading east would be well placed to intercept bombers coming in from the ocean. You now seem to be suggesting that fighters should be launched from the ocean and then head west over New York to intercept bombers coming from the east. Do you think you're getting a little bit confused here?

Now, take a deep breath, and try to listen. The fighters were launched from the land, not the ocean. Any bomber coming from the ocean would be to their east. Any civilian airliners would mostly be to their west. Therefore, since they were expecting to intercept bombers and not airliners, their standard procedure was to head east, out to sea, until ground control gave them an intercept vector. On 9/11, that's what they did, and as a result it took them rather longer to get to New York. Got that?

Dave

 

[MikeW]

So you're telling us they thought the flight 77 was the second airplane into the towers instead of flight 175?

That was one opinion at American, though not shared by everyone - others didn't see how it could have got there in time.

But the point is there was a mix of views across the FAA, ATC and American. Some thought it had crashed on its regular flight path, some thought it had hit the towers, some weren't sure. What they didn't have was definitive knowledge that it was in the air and heading for Washington, and so NEADs didn't hear about the plane until just a few minutes before it hit the Pentagon.

 

[danrush]

Transponders indicated which planes they were. The FAA tracked them til they turned off the transponder, but they were still able to track them with conventional radar. You know, conventional radar like the ones used in WWII before the invention of the transponder?

First off...

WWII, how many commercial planes were flying over the English Channel when the Luftwaffe was buzzing their way towards Dover?

WWII radar was primitive as heck, not like the radars from 1950 onwards.

Enjoy looking at snow and trying to find a single flake without Mode 3 discrimination.

your tail's on fire.

 

[danrush]

So you're telling us they thought the flight 77 was the second airplane into the towers instead of flight 175?

here's the transcript of MCC 2 for you to look at.

www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

This is probably the best interpreted play by play on the net.

 

[Java Man]

Now, take a deep breath, and try to listen. The fighters were launched from the land, not the ocean. Any bomber coming from the ocean would be to their east. Any civilian airliners would mostly be to their west. Therefore, since they were expecting to intercept bombers and not airliners, their standard procedure was to head east, out to sea, until ground control gave them an intercept vector. On 9/11, that's what they did, and as a result it took them rather longer to get to New York. Got that?

Your theory holds for aircraft launching from bases north of New York. For a base south of NY would find NY east of its position. Regardless of this the could still have flown halfway to Bermuda and still make it on time to catch the plane.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Your theory holds for aircraft launching from bases north of New York. For a base south of NY would find NY east of its position. Regardless of this the could still have flown halfway to Bermuda and still make it on time to catch the plane.

I see you're subscribing to the Pete Townsend school of geography.

"The north side of my town faced east, and the east side was facing south." - The Who, Substitute.

NY is to the east of places that are to the south. Priceless.

Dave

 

[Java Man]

That was one opinion at American, though not shared by everyone - others didn't see how it could have got there in time.

Yes, flight 77 would have to be pushing Mach 3 to pull that feat.

 

[Java Man]

So they did have discriminator capability to single out the hijacked aircraft but without mode 3 to remove all the targets they would have to pick target by target and there was simply too many targets and too little time.

Really? not according to Boston Center

08:39:58
WATSON: It’s the inbound to J.F.K.?
BOSTON CENTER: We—we don’t know.
WATSON: You don’t know where he is at all?
BOSTON CENTER: He’s being hijacked. The pilot’s having a hard time talking to the—I mean, we don’t know. We don’t know where he’s goin’. He’s heading towards Kennedy. He’s—like I said, he’s like 35 miles north of Kennedy now at 367 knots. We have no idea where he’s goin’ or what his intentions are.

It's clear he has the position and the speed.

 

[danrush]

He’s heading towards Kennedy. He’s—like I said, he’s like 35 miles north of Kennedy now at 367 knots. We have no idea where he’s goin’ or what his intentions are.

They have nothing! All they have is the information Boston ATC could provide and without Mode 3 they couldn't find him on an old green monster scope with it cluttered with other targets.

 

[Java Man]

They have nothing! All they have is the information Boston ATC could provide and without Mode 3 they couldn't find him on an old green monster scope with it cluttered with other targets.

They have speed down to the knot. That's quite a bit of precision for something you don't know were it is and were it is a tid bit later.

I don't buy your argument.