Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[drkitten]

I've not seen any evidence that suggest Uranium in the oceans can be used for practical energy usage.

Evidence has been shown to you in this thread.

 

[TFian]

Evidence has been shown to you in this thread.

On the amount, but not on any kind of practical extraction and energy usage.

 

[Weak Kitten]

And what "BS" is Grand ArchDruid John Michael Greer going to give you?

The whole thing with calling them "Green Wizards" seems pretty BSy. So what is the difference between a "Green Wizard" and someone who just knows how to farm with pre-industrial technology?

 

[excaza]

On the amount, but not on any kind of practical extraction and energy usage.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uranium+recovery+from+seawater

The energy usage is called a nuclear power plant. The thing that you don't understand.

 

[TFian]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uranium+recovery+from+seawater

The energy usage is called a nuclear power plant. The thing that you don't understand.

That proves nothing. I can do the same thing.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Peak+oil+end+of+industrial+civilization+

 

[drkitten]

On the amount, but not on any kind of practical extraction and energy usage.

Nope. Re-read the links. The Japanese can do it for a little over $100/pound.

Here's a more direct link if you like.

 

[TFian]

The whole thing with calling them "Green Wizards" seems pretty BSy. So what is the difference between a "Green Wizard" and someone who just knows how to farm with pre-industrial technology?

There's some differences. It's packaged from an ease to use standpoint, and it mixes a lot of ecotechnic techniques into it.

 

[Mark6]

That proves nothing. I can do the same thing.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Peak+oil+end+of+industrial+civilization+

Which proves you are too lazy to read stuff which disagrees with your beliefs.

Uranium HAS been recovered from seawater, at the cost of about 10 times mining it from land. Which adds practically nothing to the cost of electricity generated from it.

 

[drkitten]

But how are these OLPC laptops made? My guess it needs a fossil fuel heavy globalized system to make and distribute.

You guess wrong. It's just more efficient to do it that way.

We could run a chip fabrication facility in Texas entirely off of solar power; we don't bother, because there's no point to doing so. Similarly, there's no reason that the chips couldn't be soldered to the motherboards at the same facilities, but it turns out to be cheaper to ship things around on a massive scale to take advantage of changes in local wage rates.

 

[TFian]

You guess wrong. It's just more efficient to do it that way.

We could run a chip fabrication facility in Texas entirely off of solar power; we don't bother, because there's no point to doing so. Similarly, there's no reason that the chips couldn't be soldered to the motherboards at the same facilities, but it turns out to be cheaper to ship things around on a massive scale to take advantage of changes in local wage rates.

How could it be done all off of solar power? Could you make such solar panels without any oil?

Ah yes, the disparity of wages. The beauty of "globalization".

Also it's only "cheaper" because of abundant liquid fossil fuels. Which is running out.

 

[excaza]

Well, this sure is productive.

 

[Weak Kitten]

There's some differences. It's packaged from an ease to use standpoint, and it mixes a lot of ecotechnic techniques into it.

What's Ecotechnic? Or should I say, what do you think it is? The articles I found on that word either talked about the Biosphere 2 project or a future with sustainable energy production, not the post apocalyptic scenario you are talking about.

Also, I looked up this John Michael Greer fellow. He doesn't seem to think the world is going to completely collapse after peak oil either. At least, not in the bit I read. Where are you getting your information?

 

[TFian]

What's Ecotechnic? Or should I say, what do you think it is? The articles I found on that word either talked about the Biosphere 2 project or a future with sustainable energy production, not the post apocalyptic scenario you are talking about.

To quote from the horses mouth himself "“IIn response to the coming impact of peak oil, John Michael Greer helps us envision the transition from an industrial society to a sustainable ecotechnic world - not returning to the past, but creating a society that supports relatively advanced technology on a sustainable resource base.

Fusing human ecology and history, this book challenges assumptions held by mainstream and alternative thinkers about the evolution of human societies. Human societies, like ecosystems, evolve in complex and unpredictable ways, making it futile to try to impose rigid ideological forms on the patterns of evolutionary change. Instead, social change must explore many pathways over which we have no control. The troubling and exhilarating prospect of an open-ended future, he proposes, requires dissensus - a deliberate acceptance of radical diversity that widens the range of potential approaches to infinity.

Written in three parts, the book places the present crisis of the industrial world in its historical and ecological context in part one; part two explores the toolkit for Ecotechnic Age, and part three opens a door to the complexity of future visions.

For anyone concerned about peak oil and the future of the industrial society, this book provides a solid analysis of how we got to where we are, and a practical toolkit to prepare for the future. "

Also, I looked up this John Michael Greer fellow. He doesn't seem to think the world is going to completely collapse after peak oil either. At least, not in the bit I read. Where are you getting your information?

True, but he believes industrial civilization is coming to an end, and that the United States will be a third world country soon. I am getting my information from his blog.

 

[Mark6]

How could it be done all off of solar power? Could you make such solar panels without any oil?

Ah yes, the disparity of wages. The beauty of "globalization".

Also it's only "cheaper" because of abundant liquid fossil fuels. Which is running out.

You are shifting the topic. Nobody here will cry if chip manufacturing moves back to US. The point is, it CAN move to US. There is nothing irreplaceable about fuel-intensive global supply chain.

 

[TFian]

You are shifting the topic. Nobody here will cry if chip manufacturing moves back to US. The point is, it CAN move to US. There is nothing irreplaceable about fuel-intensive global supply chain.

You're right, I did. I apologize. May I ask how it could be done locally with solar power?

 

[drkitten]

How could it be done all off of solar power? Could you make such solar panels without any oil?

Yes.

As in, I personally could. Set of pipes, turbine, generator, done.

Also it's only "cheaper" because of abundant liquid fossil fuels. Which is running out.

No. But even if it did run out, that would simply make it no longer cheaper to do assembly and chip fabrication at different sites.

 

[TFian]

Yes.

As in, I personally could. Set of pipes, turbine, generator, done.

But how would you make the pipes, turbine and generator?

 

[Weak Kitten]

To quote from the horses mouth himself "“IIn response to the coming impact of peak oil, John Michael Greer helps us envision the transition from an industrial society to a sustainable ecotechnic world - not returning to the past, but creating a society that supports relatively advanced technology on a sustainable resource base.

Um, that was the section I was wondering about. He states, "...not returning to the past, but creating a society that supports relatively advanced technology on a sustainable resource base."

That's pretty different from a return to a pre-industrial agrarian society. In fact, that's closer to what the rest of us have been arguing. A move towards sustainable resources without completely abandoning modern technology.

True, but he believes industrial civilization is coming to an end, and that the United States will be a third world country soon. I am getting my information from his blog.

Where is this blog? You haven't quoted much directly from it so we have no idea what he is actually saying in his blog. It may be that you have misinterpreted what he was trying to say.

 

[Mark6]

But how would you make the pipes, turbine and generator?

Local blacksmith?

Seriously, this is down to 18th century technology (I know they did not make generators back then, but they certainly could). If you can't obtain pipes, turbine and generator, you are in Mad Max scenario again, and your talk of Morse, radio and notebooks is moot.

 

[drkitten]

But how would you make the pipes, turbine and generator?

Well, I have several options. I could buy them now. I could salvage them from a scrap pile when civillization has collapsed. I could rig up a windmill in my back yard to power the foundry. Or I could simply use a wood-fired stove to forge them on. I admit to being out of practice as a whitesmith, so I'd probably call in some friends to help me with that last option if it were necessary.

But, of course, once we've got one set of solar-based generators running, I can use them to run a solar-based generator fab line and power acres and acres of manufacturing happiness.