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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Halides, speaking of answering questions, there are some great ones posed by Michael, Fiona, and others on page 19 over at PMF. They also pointed out some inconsistencies in some of the arguments here. I don't know who is right or wrong in those arguments, but what they said sounds reasonable. If this is against any rules here, please ignore this request, thank you

it seems pretty silly that guilters and innocenti can't just all talk on the same forum. the reason they can't is the power-crazed mods on PMF are forever banning people or otherwise driving posters away, often using foul language in the process.
 
if he said something like 'I personally would be happy for my daughter to share a flat with Amanda knox because I don't believe she's guilty' this would be allowable surely?

I think what you do on your free time can't be controlled by your employer unless your employment contract has wording that prohibits you from doing something that would reflect badly on your employer. Pepperdine is not really claiming this as a violation but rather that Moore is spending too much time on this case and it must be in some way interfering with his job duties. That should be a simple matter to prove. Did Moore miss work or was late to work because of his outside interest in this case? Or did he work on the case while he was at work?
 
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it seems pretty silly that guilters and innocenti can't just all talk on the same forum. the reason they can't is the power-crazed mods on PMF are forever banning people or otherwise driving posters away, often using foul language in the process.

Cite?

(just kidding)
 
halides1 " have responded to a number of your comments. Do you plan to reply? By reply I mean discuss using facts and logic."

Nope!
 
"if he said something like 'I personally would be happy for my daughter to share a flat with Amanda knox because I don't believe she's guilty' this would be allowable surely?"

In your book, maybe,but the administrators have a duty of care.
 
I think the difference is that we've been over this ground very thoroughly here already, and we've established the verifiable facts of the case much better than you appear to have managed.

Look, it's a pain in the backside but I guess we could do it all again for you. One thing though: If we show you chapter and verse to prove that there was undigested cheese in Meredith's stomach, that she consumed her small to moderate sized meal of pizza between 18:00 and 18:30 and that she drank no alcohol with her meal will you then accept that Meredith died before 22:00?

If not, what possible evidence could make you believe that Meredith died before 22:00? That is not a rhetorical question. I'm asking for you to state what, if any, facts you would accept as falsifying the PMF cult doctrine with regard to Meredith's time of death.

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Strong words, Kevin. I missed your proof that Meredith had consumed her meal of pizza between 18:00 (6:00 pm) and 18:30 (6:30 pm). Raffaele's defense attorneys, who heard all of the testimony from Meredith's English friends, seem to have a contrary understanding as to when she ate that meal...

"Based upon experts and medico-legal criterion, Meredith died at 2-3 or 3-4 hours after her last meal which was completed around 6:30pm to 7:00pm. This places the death (using 3 hours) at 9:30pm to 10:00pm." Raffaele's Appeal Here

Please explain.

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pizza

Halides, speaking of answering questions, there are some great ones posed by Michael, Fiona, and others on page 19 over at PMF. They also pointed out some inconsistencies in some of the arguments here. I don't know who is right or wrong in those arguments, but what they said sounds reasonable. If this is against any rules here, please ignore this request, thank you

My questions to stilicho about the Hendricks case and other matters could also apply to Fiona or Michael as well. It is interesting that the same general food, pizza, is in the stomachs of the desceased in both situations. I asked my questions first.
 
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It seems that the question has come up that this article is not referring to doubts by Italians but rather doubts by Americans about the case. I don't see it as even remotely possible that this is what the article refers to. Solange and colonel hall....Do you think this is referring to doubts that Americans have?
 
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Strong words, Kevin. I missed your proof that Meredith had consumed her meal of pizza between 18:00 (6:00 pm) and 18:30 (6:30 pm). Raffaele's defense attorneys, who heard all of the testimony from Meredith's English friends, seem to have a contrary understanding as to when she ate that meal...

"Based upon experts and medico-legal criterion, Meredith died at 2-3 or 3-4 hours after her last meal which was completed around 6:30pm to 7:00pm. This places the death (using 3 hours) at 9:30pm to 10:00pm." Raffaele's Appeal Here

Please explain.

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I don't get this one either. Sophie is quoted in the Micheli report as saying they ate dinner at 6PM or even earlier.
 
Halides, speaking of answering questions, there are some great ones posed by Michael, Fiona, and others on page 19 over at PMF.

Michael and Fiona are both members here. If they have questions, why are they afraid to ask them in a forum where Michael can't ban people who might provide the answers?

Oh, I think I may have answered my own question. :rolleyes:
 
Halides, speaking of answering questions, there are some great ones posed by Michael, Fiona, and others on page 19 over at PMF. They also pointed out some inconsistencies in some of the arguments here. I don't know who is right or wrong in those arguments, but what they said sounds reasonable. If this is against any rules here, please ignore this request, thank you

Most of them have accounts here, so it's not like they are not free to discuss in person. There's a reason they present their convictions on a dedicated site that prohibits some views.
Solange305, we should regard their feelings too. They have their beliefs, they are attached to them emotionally, some invested significant part of their lives. They clearly don't wish to have their beliefs scrutinized and trampled here by heartless skeptics and I think we should respect it.
 
"Michael and Fiona are both members here. If they have questions, why are they afraid to ask them in a forum where Michael can't ban people who might provide the answers?"

After having read their posts over a long period of time and seen their comments elsewhere, I get the impression that they feel that they have made their case and are not interested in being bored to death by people who have nothing to offer but hot air.
 
No Pronoun Here Either...

I left several threads suspended, not just this point.

I can give the obvious answer that I have no idea of what Amanda knew, because I'm not inside her mind. I can equally state that responsability is a concept which may not just depend on what Amanda knows or thinks. This is why the example of an accident in a left driving country. One may be responsible also for knowing or not knowing things, but even while not knowing things in advance one may be responsible just for taking or not taking precautions, for what an action may cause. And the concept of "responsability" is not the only one implied and not necessaryli comes into play, in cases of normal mistakes we do in life we rest on the sheer concept of cause and effect. Amanda's diary and her persnal taste of what to write in it, are the necessary cause to what was published.

There isn't an explicit rule by which specifically her writings are subject to confiscantion, in fact they were not confiscated, they are phisically still her property, but they can be seized and are subject to investigation, because Amanda is a formal suspect. Obviously the police needs a mandate to search her belongings, but not necessarily a prosecutor's mandate. Her correspondence can be equally subjected to reading and investigation, but not to censorship.

The matter of the publication of Amanda's writing does not rest on rules and regulations. There is a more general rule, a general principle, which is whatever a suspect says outside the court in extra judicial context, even before thye became suspects, can be considered as statement and is equally assessed by judges just as statements given in court. This general principle is pervasive in the Italian system, like the right of defendants to lie, like the left driving in the UK. Inmates might well know it, Amanda might well have known her writings could be read, as well as she knew her private conversations in prison were recorded. Anyway this is a principle, not a specific regulation.

If you want an example of what "diary" means in prison, you have it from one of the earliest Frank Sfarzo's articles, when he wrote his blog in Italian. His description of Raffaele's diary:


Perugia Shock - Wednesday, December 12, 2007Perugia Shock archive - December 2007

Professione Scrittore

Dal diario di Raffaele come prima cosa si evince come non sia un documento genuino. Oltre a sapere, ovviamente, che tutto quanto da lui scritto viene analizzato da chi di dovere (giudici, poliziotti, psichiatri, etc) il cocco di papà sa di redarre un documento destinato alla pubblicazione. A un secondino, infatti, dice "Dimmi il tuo nome, così ti cito nel diario e diventi famoso".
Raffaele, quindi, resosi perfettamente conto della macchina mediatica creatasi attorno a lui, lavora per lei. Scrive letteralmente un diario su commissione.

Ormai pensa di essere un Re Mida, un Gesù, dotato del potere di cambiare la vita a una persona semplicemente scrivendone il nome.

Per rendere il documento credibile, non dimentica di usare uno stile che gli è proprio, tuttavia lo stile rimane comunque molto diverso da quello del blog. Vi è, quindi, un attento controllo della forma così come del contenuto.

Il tentativo di rifarsi un'immagine è evidente. Viene, infatti ripetuto il proposito di astenersi dalle canne, ci sono molti riferimenti a Dio, a Gesù a qualcuno che lo guarda dall'alto (e in effetti il ragazzo sembra proprio aver la tentazione di paragonarsi a Gesù in croce). Sotto questo aspetto va letta anche l'autocritica ai suoi passati comportamenti, sia anche il ringraziamento al destino che l'ha voluto benestante. Sono quelle normali tecniche di captatio benevolentiae. Il giudizio del pubblico è importante.

Per quanto riguarda i fatti, il diario di Raffaele non è altro che una risposta a quello che è stato scoperto. Per esempio, è stato scoperto che non vi era attività umana al computer. E lui giustifica la cosa col fatto che proprio perché era a letto con Amanda non ha usato il computer. E' stato scoperto il Dna sul suo coltello. E lui giustifica la cosa col fatto che una volta, cucinando, aveva punto Meredith. [And he justifies it with the fact that once, while cooking, Meredith was pricked.]

E così almeno sappiamo che la sostanza biologica sul coltello era sangue. Ricordo, infatti, che la traccia era talmente esigua da non poter far risalire alla natura della sostanza. Addiruttura la squadra del sorriso si era spinta a dire che la sostanza sicuramente non era sangue.

Da cosa nasce cosa, e così capiamo anche il funzionamento mentale della squadra del sorriso.
Loro avevano detto di avere le prove che la sostanza non era sangue (quando neanche la scientifica può dirlo). Sono gli stessi che dicono di avere le prove che al computer vi era attività umana. Sono gli stessi che dicono di aver dimostrato che l'impronta di scarpa era tre numeri superiori alla scarpa di Raffaele.

In effetti qualche dubbio era sorto a tutti sulle loro sicurezze, per quanto recitate con estrema convinzione. Tutti ci siamo chiesti ma se è così perché la procura pensa il contrario? Due sono le cose. O sbaglia la Procura o sbagliano loro.
Ora, le vie dell'errore sono infinite e alla fine Raffaele, così come Amanda, potrebbe anche non entrarci niente.
Ma è anche grazie a simili particolari, tipo quelli che possiamo notare sul diario, che la sensazione è che sbaglino loro. E fin quando sbagliano Raffaele continuerà ad essere R-AF-faele.


F.S. at 6:27 PM 6

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So, maybe, Frank don't read Italian no better than Doctor Sollecito.

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Most of them have accounts here, so it's not like they are not free to discuss in person. There's a reason they present their convictions on a dedicated site that prohibits some views.
Solange305, we should regard their feelings too. They have their beliefs, they are attached to them emotionally, some invested significant part of their lives. They clearly don't wish to have their beliefs scrutinized and trampled here by heartless skeptics and I think we should respect it.

..
 
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Does anyone have an opinion on the upcoming Knox Slander Trial?

Personally I find AKs description of the events during the interrogation very plausible and reminiscent of the way the nuns treated us in grade school. Smacks on the head, yanks on the ear, and raps on the knuckles were commonplace.

What I would like to see is every person that was involved in the interrogation should testify what they did, saw and heard. They should be reminded that lying under is a felony-level crime and punishable by serving prison time. Assuming they are mostly staunch Catholics, the defense team might have a priest remind them that lying under oath is a mortal sin which can result in eternal damnation. If I remember my Catechism correctly, in order for one to be forgiven for such a sin, you need to be “truly sorry” for the transgression and have a “firm purpose of amendment”. That means you need to do everything you can to correct the harm you’ve done (tell the truth) and be committed to never doing it again. Maybe the fear of having their peers tell what actually occurred would be a strong incentive to tell the true.

Ok, enough preaching. Can I get an AMEN?

DD
 
"Michael and Fiona are both members here. If they have questions, why are they afraid to ask them in a forum where Michael can't ban people who might provide the answers?"

After having read their posts over a long period of time and seen their comments elsewhere, I get the impression that they feel that they have made their case and are not interested in being bored to death by people who have nothing to offer but hot air.

If they felt they made their case then they wouldn't need to translate Massei's report.
 
Vanity Fair citation

I found this quote in a Vanity Fair article from May 12, 2008:
“In December, when the decision to keep Amanda in jail until trial came down, Mignini was so thrilled he actually embraced the lawyer for Meredith’s family. ‘It was a home run,’ Maresca tells me, contented. ‘It meant all the evidence was good.’”

This was a decision to the effect that Amanda and Raffaele should be held for nearly a year before being formally charged. Of course, Mignini's comment that all the evidence was good is, shall we say, debatable.
 
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