Invitation for Java Man to discuss his 9/11 theory

Well the NIST report is a key element in the official story. Actually being lacking as it is it is your main defense. If I were to leave the NIST report out then your camp would be out cold. Recall that it was your camp that hammered me about "reading the NIST" report. Have your read it?, they asked. And now you want to disregard one of your main documents too?

What is so difficult about the OP for you to understand? I want your theory, along with the evidence, calculations, and references used to develop it.

I don't want a statement of how you feel the NIST report is fraudulent and/or incomplete. If you think it's so deeply flawed, why would you want to include the NIST report in your theory anyway? You don't believe the collapse was natural, so nothing in the NIST report would apply to your theory, regardless.
 
What is so difficult about the OP for you to understand? I want your theory, along with the evidence, calculations, and references used to develop it.

You want more on the table? We're with the thermite and your camp can't quite handle that well enough.
 
I want your theory, along with the evidence, calculations, and references used to develop it.

Is this really that difficult to understand?
 
leftyyyyy!! shhh!!! You are inviting yet another derail to the minutiae of N, R or X in Java Man's theory, when we yet have to hear the beginning of it (A), let alone the full theory! You know, that most solid theory!

That's not what I'm questioning. I'm questioning his claim of explosives into my theory. Which is tainting and preconception. I'm also questioning his constraint of possible references. Why doesn't he want to have any reference to NIST? Limit possible claims of people hearing noises? That sounds a bit like a cover up doesn't it? I want you to prove this, but you can't use that. Mhhh typical debunker strategy. When the evidence beings to go against their cause they just disregard it. And what better than a preemptive disregard.

Gosh, what a surprise. Java Man takes advantage of yet another flimsy excuse to avoid having to say what he thinks happened on 9/11.

Since we haven't heard your theory yet, it's getting close to the time where we have to conclude you simply haven't a clue.

Dave
 
FEMA has two nice samples that could be thermite effects.



What limits us to that column? There could have been other columns affected in such a way, we just don't see the material flowing outward. But it would explain the later presence of molten metal in the pile.



Take a look at the many videos. You will clearly see white smoke coming out.



You just keep rising the bar on the fire temperature don't you. Now we need a 2500º(F)+ fire to account for molten glass. Are you some type of truther double agent trying to prove fusion guns from outer space?

What's the relevance of that?

Why should I support a theory that is being put forth by you? And secondly limit the evidence to your constraints?

That's not what I'm questioning. I'm questioning his claim of explosives into my theory. Which is tainting and preconception. I'm also questioning his constraint of possible references. Why doesn't he want to have any reference to NIST? Limit possible claims of people hearing noises? That sounds a bit like a cover up doesn't it? I want you to prove this, but you can't use that. Mhhh typical debunker strategy. When the evidence beings to go against their cause they just disregard it. And what better than a preemptive disregard.

Well for starters you believe (that I believe) explosives initiated the collapse. Don't you?

So your happy NOT aspiring to better the truther movement. "just as them" is good for you?

Well the NIST report is a key element in the official story. Actually being lacking as it is it is your main defense. If I were to leave the NIST report out then your camp would be out cold. Recall that it was your camp that hammered me about "reading the NIST" report. Have your read it?, they asked. And now you want to disregard one of your main documents too?

You want more on the table? We're with the thermite and your camp can't quite handle that well enough.


I see you're still having trouble formulating a theory Java Man.

I guess we might as well close this thread, I don't think you're well enough equipped to ever present one.
 
That's not what I'm questioning. I'm questioning his claim of explosives into my theory. Which is tainting and preconception. I'm also questioning his constraint of possible references. Why doesn't he want to have any reference to NIST? Limit possible claims of people hearing noises? That sounds a bit like a cover up doesn't it? I want you to prove this, but you can't use that. Mhhh typical debunker strategy. When the evidence beings to go against their cause they just disregard it. And what better than a preemptive disregard.

You don't have a theory. You have a misconception. You haven't stated how thermite was supposed to have worked to bring down the towers. You haven't stated how it was emplaced. Furthermore, you sure as heck haven't stated how the existing evidence - the recovered steel, the witness testimony, the observed behavior of the towers - is explained by thermite. Thermite is *not* a theory; if it truly were used, it's a component, a detail. It's nothing more. A "theory" is the result of an analysis of a set of facts and observations culminating in an explanation of what's being observed. You haven't even put forth any facts, nor cited any observations. With that, how are you supposed to prove your point?

-----

You need to understand something: Requesting a coherent theory isn't some argumentative tactic. Rather, it's a way to get you to provide a concrete basis for your arguments. It is a way to be disciplined about how you frame arguments and how you present details. It is also a way to critically discern what makes sense and what fails.

When we argue our points, we work from the concrete basis that has been established over time. We work from the observed initial facts, such as the videos, eyewitness testimony, news and amateur video, and radar data to establish that the jets impacted. We take in the reports of the fires and structural damage. We add to that the knowledge of how the buildings were constructed, and also all the knowledge built over the years about how structures react in fires, and how structure fires themselves behave. We take in observations, such as the number of floors that were on fire, the behavior of the exterior structure, etc. And we use all of that and all the other pieces of information and build a theory, i.e. an explanation of how the known facts (jet impacts, damage to structure, structure fires, design of the buildings, etc.) when taken in conjunction with known, established engineering and physical principles of fire behavior, tall structure behavior, etc. explains what we saw when the towers collapsed. That is the basic, superficial explanation of what a theory contains. It contains a set of facts, established principles, application of those principles to the facts and situation, and a culmnation of what all that adds up to. "Thermite" is most assuredly not a theory, not by any standard, let alone a rigorous one.

If you aren't working from a solid base of knowledge, you're demonstrating that you haven't studied the knowledge that exists regarding the collapse. That's why we're constantly on you to provide it: It's to give you the opportunity to show that you haven't merely gone to truther sites and memorized a canon of nits to pick. It's to show that you've truly analyzed the event, the facts, and the principles and concluded that there's something wrong with the explanation as it stands.

In short, pushing you for a concrete theory is giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that you've truly thought things through.

That's why you need to provide it. Without it, all you're doing is being a gadfly, fluttering about and around talking points without true comprehension of what they all mean as a whole. If you want to distinguish yourself from the rest of the truther pack, you'll work rise above that. But if you don't, if you stick with what you've been doing, all you'll demonstrate to those of us who've studied this is that you're unwilling to put the work in. And at that point, why should we take you seriously?
 
FEMA has two nice samples that could be thermite effects.



What limits us to that column? There could have been other columns affected in such a way, we just don't see the material flowing outward. But it would explain the later presence of molten metal in the pile.



Take a look at the many videos. You will clearly see white smoke coming out.



You just keep rising the bar on the fire temperature don't you. Now we need a 2500º(F)+ fire to account for molten glass. Are you some type of truther double agent trying to prove fusion guns from outer space?

So you have no theory.Thread closed?
 
The later FAQ's explain the collapse. I take it you have read them?

No, it explains how it COULD happen without the conspiracy theories of explosives, rather than what actually happened. Thats the thing about the whole nist model and this ad infinitum discussion. How it MAY have happen is not the same as how it DID happen. Nine years after, only god if it existed could show us what really happened.
 
What's the relevance of that?

Well, you are on record saying the following:

The OP invites me to express my theory, but proposes a theory of its own as mine. Odd isn't it?

Will you allow me to express my theory? I mean my theory as a whole, not just the part about the building collapse. Will you?

Ok getting down to the theory.

After listening to many of the debunker positions and a few truther positions I believe the most solid theory would center around the use of thermite and the minimal use (if any of explosives).

This seems to be responsive of the OP.
So let's hear your theory as a whole, you know, that most solid theory!
 
Well for starters you believe (that I believe) explosives initiated the collapse. Don't you?

Who cares what he believes!
Go ahead, present your theory as a whole, and if it contains no explosives, you will make him look like a fool! I'd grab that chance instantly! Now!

I want to hear your theory, and not excazas believes about your theory. So do me a favour: Tell me your theory as a whole, please!
 
Well the NIST report is a key element in the official story. Actually being lacking as it is it is your main defense. If I were to leave the NIST report out then your camp would be out cold. Recall that it was your camp that hammered me about "reading the NIST" report. Have your read it?, they asked. And now you want to disregard one of your main documents too?

If the NIST report is part of your theory of what happened on 9/11, then by all means, include it (it just would be a little surprising, since work on the NIST report started after 9/11 and can not be an explanation of what happened on 9/11)
If the NIST report contains evidence that supports your theory, then by all means, include it!

Please leave the NIST report out if you want to use for other reasons than presenting YOUR whole theory, or providing evidence for YOUR whole theory.
 
You want more on the table? We're with the thermite and your camp can't quite handle that well enough.

To the contrary. If you have a whole and solid theory that involves thermite (and possibly a minimum amount of explosives), and exlains the collapses, and everything else that you want it to explain, AND you also present evidence that supports your theory, we'd be a lot more than happy, and I assure you we can handle that just fine!

So, please: What is your theory? Whole and solid?
 
You don't have a theory. You have a misconception. You haven't stated how thermite was supposed to have worked to bring down the towers. You haven't stated how it was emplaced. Furthermore, you sure as heck haven't stated how the existing evidence - the recovered steel, the witness testimony, the observed behavior of the towers - is explained by thermite. Thermite is *not* a theory; if it truly were used, it's a component, a detail. It's nothing more. A "theory" is the result of an analysis of a set of facts and observations culminating in an explanation of what's being observed. You haven't even put forth any facts, nor cited any observations. With that, how are you supposed to prove your point?

-----

You need to understand something: Requesting a coherent theory isn't some argumentative tactic. Rather, it's a way to get you to provide a concrete basis for your arguments. It is a way to be disciplined about how you frame arguments and how you present details. It is also a way to critically discern what makes sense and what fails.

When we argue our points, we work from the concrete basis that has been established over time. We work from the observed initial facts, such as the videos, eyewitness testimony, news and amateur video, and radar data to establish that the jets impacted. We take in the reports of the fires and structural damage. We add to that the knowledge of how the buildings were constructed, and also all the knowledge built over the years about how structures react in fires, and how structure fires themselves behave. We take in observations, such as the number of floors that were on fire, the behavior of the exterior structure, etc. And we use all of that and all the other pieces of information and build a theory, i.e. an explanation of how the known facts (jet impacts, damage to structure, structure fires, design of the buildings, etc.) when taken in conjunction with known, established engineering and physical principles of fire behavior, tall structure behavior, etc. explains what we saw when the towers collapsed. That is the basic, superficial explanation of what a theory contains. It contains a set of facts, established principles, application of those principles to the facts and situation, and a culmnation of what all that adds up to. "Thermite" is most assuredly not a theory, not by any standard, let alone a rigorous one.

If you aren't working from a solid base of knowledge, you're demonstrating that you haven't studied the knowledge that exists regarding the collapse. That's why we're constantly on you to provide it: It's to give you the opportunity to show that you haven't merely gone to truther sites and memorized a canon of nits to pick. It's to show that you've truly analyzed the event, the facts, and the principles and concluded that there's something wrong with the explanation as it stands.

In short, pushing you for a concrete theory is giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that you've truly thought things through.

That's why you need to provide it. Without it, all you're doing is being a gadfly, fluttering about and around talking points without true comprehension of what they all mean as a whole. If you want to distinguish yourself from the rest of the truther pack, you'll work rise above that. But if you don't, if you stick with what you've been doing, all you'll demonstrate to those of us who've studied this is that you're unwilling to put the work in. And at that point, why should we take you seriously?

Outstanding post and it should be required reading for every truther.
 
Let me try again, to formulate a truther theory for 9/11...

--------

Planer/Thermite Theory:

WTCs
In the days prior to 9/11, The WTCs were rigged for demolition. This Demolition was controlled, to a degree, but far from classic CD. The perps, hired black ops, posing as painters/electrical workers etc... busily began their work at planting, on select critical columns, a tested (on steel columns but not in an actual CD) thermite applicator. Based on S.Jones paper, we believe that the applicators sprayed the nano-thermite onto the columns, hundreds of layers thick. The applicators were made out of thermite proof inert material. These applicators were set to go off at just the right moment, so that the towers came down about 1 hour after the plane impacts. They were set off in a fashion so as to make sense to those that watched the collapses, namely from top down.

The same was done in WTC7, but frankly they were bored, so decided to have it come down in the more traditional, bottom up way.

Pentagon
They used a SUPER LARGE cruise missile, dressed up to look like an airliner, and had it hit the side of the Pentagon. Like with the WTC planes, the passengers from the ACTUAL flight 77 were unloaded at a sekrit location, and then executed. They planted the debris, the light poles, the pieces of the plane, the passenger DNA, the whole 9 yards.

Flight 93
This was the coup de gras. In order to inspire a nation to back them(the neocons) up on our path to war, they had to give them some heroes...so they gave them the passengers of flight 93. They had a military plane fly over shanksville, the blew up some explosives at the alleged crash site, dropped in a few plane bits and payed off wallace miller. At the same time they had actors play the parts of the passengers, and using proprietary voice mimicing software, faked all the calls the public heard. Like with the other flights, the real flight 93 was landed at the sekrit location, and the passengers executed.

-------

SO as a debunker playing a truther, how did I do?

TAM;)
 
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Let me try again, to formulate a truther theory for 9/11...

--------

Planer/Thermite Theory:

WTCs
In the days prior to 9/11, The WTCs were rigged for demolition. This Demolition was controlled, to a degree, but far from classic CD. The perps, hired black ops, posing as painters/electrical workers etc... busily began their ......

and using proprietary voice mimicing software, faked all the calls the public heard. Like with the other flights, the real flight 93 was landed at the sekrit location, and the passengers executed.

-------

SO as a debunker playing a truther, how did I do?

TAM;)

Not bad not bad. The question is why? Why would they go through all that trouble?
 

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