Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Danceme]

Well, I for one am convinced by that explanation, and I now believe Quintavalle to be a completely reliable witness

(I particularly like the part where Quintavalle didn't recognise a woman's facial features, hair or stature when she was alone, because these facets were only recognisable to him when she was standing next to a particular other man.)

I thought it was the best description I have read on Quintavalle and it makes sense to me, logical sense. Haven't you ever seen someone somewhere and said to yourself, 'I know I know this person but from where?' It takes the association, such as 'it's so and so's friend' to allow you to remember.

yes, in some jurisdictions failing to report a serious crime such as murder is an offence.

Nara did not know a murder had taken place. She heard a horrible scream but had no way of knowing what caused it. Because she is probably someone who minds her own business generally she did not act on it. She has expressed regret over this.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DeLuna was not a stranger

I just don't see why Amanda's in any way unusual for bringing a few guys back to sleep with, or why it was wrong for her to do so. Surely as students we've all done plenty of this sort of thing?

Rudy and Raffaele weren't technically strange men to Meredith, she had already met both of them.

Withnail1969,

Amanda only ever brought one guy to the flat for a one-night stand, and that was Daniel DeLuna. Because Meredith was with Giacomo that night, there is no reason to think that Meredith would have objected, and Daniel was a friend of one of the young men living downstairs, and so was not even a stranger.

Juve had been to the flat on several occasions; therefore, he was not a stranger, either.

 

[Withnail1969]

I thought it was the best description I have read on Quintavalle and it makes sense to me, logical sense. Haven't you ever seen someone somewhere and said to yourself, 'I know I know this person but from where?' It takes the association, such as 'it's so and so's friend' to allow you to remember.



Nara did not know a murder had taken place. She heard a horrible scream but had no way of knowing what caused it. Because she is probably someone who minds her own business generally she did not act on it. She has expressed regret over this.

Nara said herself she was certain it was a 'scream of death' which could not have been anything else. Why don't you use Nara's own words?

 

[LondonJohn]

I thought it was the best description I have read on Quintavalle and it makes sense to me, logical sense. Haven't you ever seen someone somewhere and said to yourself, 'I know I know this person but from where?' It takes the association, such as 'it's so and so's friend' to allow you to remember.

Not when Quintavalle claims that he paid special attention to this girl who he says was waiting for his store to open, whose hair, eye colour and clothing he claimed to be able to recall, and who he took care to notice what direction she walked in when she left his store.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the big kitchen knife

I noticed that some Anonymous person at the Shock has taken the liberty of copying this post in full and posting it in the comments without saying they were quoting me.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6372520&postcount=7347

Although I am flattered they thought it was worth repeating, maybe next time (this person obviously reads here) it would be better if you indicated who you are quoting and where it came from. The use of quotation marks would be rather quite appreciated as well.

I noticed that nobody here has addressed the questions I put forward in the post, although a few have tried that at the Shock.

Rose,

I think that she carried the big knife so that she could slice the olives that were hurled at her in mid-air, Samurai style.

 

[Malkmus]

Tennessee, Kentucky, places like that.

Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

I doubt Nara's strength as a reliable witness. Personally, I believe she heard something loud that night, then later on knowing that a murder had happened around that time, unknowingly associated the two. However, I think it's a bit much to assume people in the US would face any sort of prosecution for hearing a scream and not reporting it immediately. I looked a bit into this and it seems that for one to face any real consequences you have to have been in a position to either prevent the crime, or know specifically who was in danger or who who was perpetrating the crime.
However, I will add that Nara and Amanda basically both testified to hearing a murder, yet Amanda was arrested for that. So there is a bit of irony to the situation.

 

[Solange305]

Solange305,

I resist the interpretations that my intent was to demean and that anyone with half a brain would assume Dan meant Amanda. My point is that the tabloid press (with help from ILE) turned Amanda into a loose woman, one whose escapades offended the prissy Meredith (see Mignini's closing remarks). In fact all four flatmates were sexually active, drank lightly, and smoked cannabis.

Yes, sorry if I misunderstood you. So if I am understanding correctly, Meredith never complained about Amanda brought strange men home?

 

[Solange305]

Solange305,

Meredith felt that Juve was strange, but to the best of my knowledge, that's it. And all we have is Meredith's British friends' recollection of what Meredith said, not Meredith's own words. No one's memory is like a VCR machine, as Kestrel has eloquently documented.

With due respect I think that you are underestimating the power of the press to create a character "Amanda Knox" who is the same height as Amanda Knox, but who is otherwise quite different. Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson refer to the media as a fun-house mirror with respect to the way that a person’s character can be distorted in the opening pages of "Until Proven Innocent," and not without reason.

Well, if part of that character is Amanda being loose, she did that to herself. Unless the media wrote that email on her behalf, where she claimed to have slept with a stranger on a train. I also assume that you aren't claiming that the media made up the fact that Amanda slept with Raff the first night after meeting him?

 

[LondonJohn]

Nara said herself she was certain it was a 'scream of death' which could not have been anything else. Why don't you use Nara's own words?

Not only did Nara Capezzali not act on hearing the "scream of death" immediately, she didn't act on it the next morning, or when she saw (as she claims she did) all the police commotion outside the girls' house the following day.

No.....instead, she first told her story in an Italian TV interview. This "person who (perhaps) minds her own business generally" didn't choose to go to the police with what she must have known would be important information - she chose instead to place herself in the limelight of a TV interview. By all accounts, the first the police heard of the fragrant Nara and her "scream of death" story was from watching her on the TV!

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, if part of that character is Amanda being loose, she did that to herself. Unless the media wrote that email on her behalf, where she claimed to have slept with a stranger on a train. I also assume that you aren't claiming that the media made up the fact that Amanda slept with Raff the first night after meeting him?

I wonder how long Laura dated the handyman before taking him to her bed?

 

[Withnail1969]

Well, if part of that character is Amanda being loose, she did that to herself. Unless the media wrote that email on her behalf, where she claimed to have slept with a stranger on a train. I also assume that you aren't claiming that the media made up the fact that Amanda slept with Raff the first night after meeting him?

Newsflash - women very often sleep with guys on the first night in my experience, especially students. I'm not sure about the train thing, if it even happened.

 

[Danceme]

Nara said herself she was certain it was a 'scream of death' which could not have been anything else. Why don't you use Nara's own words?

Not only did Nara Capezzali not act on hearing the "scream of death" immediately, she didn't act on it the next morning, or when she saw (as she claims she did) all the police commotion outside the girls' house the following day.

No.....instead, she first told her story in an Italian TV interview. This "person who (perhaps) minds her own business generally" didn't choose to go to the police with what she must have known would be important information - she chose instead to place herself in the limelight of a TV interview. By all accounts, the first the police heard of the fragrant Nara and her "scream of death" story was from watching her on the TV!

This is just too reminiscent of the attempts to pin blame on Sophie for not walking Meredith to her door.

 

[Solange305]

If you didn't know what the hell I was talking about, why did you bring it up as part of a personal attack on me then? I'm bemused.

Like I said, it didn't sound like a compliment. Although you took it as a personal attack, and I don't blame you for doing so, my point was that there are plenty other posters on here who bully or insult others, yet Kevin chose to call out one person whom he disagreed with for doing so. And that is true, whether you want to admit it or not.

Having said that, I am sorry that I attributed a post by someone else to you, you said to me "classy apology", but that part of the apology was sincere. As far as the vertically challenged thing, you keep harping on me for not understanding what you meant, but your tone in that entire post was negative towards ColonelHall.

 

[Withnail1969]

This is just too reminiscent of the attempts to pin blame on Sophie for not walking Meredith to her door.

Nobody's 'blaming' Nara. She didn't hear anything. She's a fantasist.

 

[Justinian2]

There's no getting around the fact that this whole area is incredibly strange, and reflects terribly badly upon the "crack" postal police, whichever explanation one chooses to believe.

Oh, and as an aside, there is a huge and important difference between attacking an argument and attacking the person who's making the argument. Just sayin'

The argument cannot be won by attacking the debater, for sure. That would be a fallacy and usually a sign one is out of ammunition and has lost.

However, one can wonders whether the evidence has been destroyed, altered, fabricated or bungled, klutzed, spasticized.

 

[LondonJohn]

This is just too reminiscent of the attempts to pin blame on Sophie for not walking Meredith to her door.

No it's not. Why did Ms Capezzali go to Italian TV rather than the police? And if she says she heard a "scream of death" that night, and says she saw the police activity outside the girls' house the following day, why didn't she come forward there and then?

 

[katy_did]

Didn't Quintavalle himself state that he first recognized the girl in the shop when he saw Amanda's picture in the paper (presumably before he was questioned by the police)? I did a quick search and came up with this, just a newspaper report I'm afraid, though I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere:

"She was young, around 20 or 21 years old. She came in and went to the section at the back of the supermarket on the left where there are the cleaning products.

"I can't remember if she bought anything. A few hours later I heard about the murder and then a few days later I saw Amanda's picture in the newspaper and I recognised her as the same girl."

If that's the case, Thoughtful's scenario doesn't work, since Quintavalle says he had already recognized the girl as Amanda before he was questioned. It's also striking that in order to make Quintavalle's testimony appear remotely credible, all these explanations have to be found for it which don't actually have any basis other than speculation - all Quintavalle himself said is that he wasn't asked about Amanda, he makes no claims about not having realized it was her until later. As Rose said, it's certainly in line with Massei's general approach, anyway...

ETA: Also, kind of odd he recognized her in the newspaper pictures but didn't recognize her in the police photos. Just another of the little quirks of his astonishing visual memory, I guess.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

No strangers on a train

Well, if part of that character is Amanda being loose, she did that to herself. Unless the media wrote that email on her behalf, where she claimed to have slept with a stranger on a train. I also assume that you aren't claiming that the media made up the fact that Amanda slept with Raff the first night after meeting him?

Solange305,

The name of the person on the train never made it onto the list Amanda wrote of her sexual partners. If you read what she wrote at this time, it is clear she was in great distress, and I doubt that she held anything back. I seem to recall that her sister referred to the train remark as a joke, and I see no reason to assume otherwise. I spoke with a female colleague of mine, whose students confide in her about their personal lives. She did not think that the number of Amanda's lifetime sexual partners, seven, was remarkable, relative to her peer group.

If I were a parent, I would be a little concerned about the, shall we say, whirlwind courtship between Amanda and Raffaele. Yet, my reservations apply equally to Amanda and Raffaele, if you take my point. My discussion of the HIV incident is an illustration of the way in which the media distorted her character. For another consider the headline in a non-tabloid paper when the guilty verdict was returned, “The Kercher Trial: Amanda Knox snared by her lust and her lies.” The lies are debatable and have been discussed extensively here, but the lust?? What is this writer talking about?

 

[katy_did]

Nobody's 'blaming' Nara. She didn't hear anything. She's a fantasist.

That's a little unfair. I still reckon she may have heard the cat.

 

[Solange305]

Speaking of posts at other web sites, I would like to quote one here and I hope the modérateur here will allow it as it is the content of the post that I am interested in, not a discussion of the poster or this other website. It gives an explanation for Quintavalle's witness testimony.

thoughtful @ PMF said:

Perhaps you could copy the entire story, or at least copy the ongoing explanatory information from Michael?