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New study on mediumship (by Emily W. Kelly)

Woomaster

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Hi folks!

A new study on mediumship has been done at the University of Virginia (by Emily W. Kelly, co-author of Irreducible Mind).

It's currently at press and will be published in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease.

I found the paper's name on Dean Radin's blog, so I googled.

These seem to be the results:
Google --> An Investigation of Mediums Who Claim to Give Information about Deceased Persons --> first link (I can't post the direct link because I'm a newbie here ;))

Any previous thoughts on this? I think that the researcher gave photographs to the mediums is a possible weakness (in a trial without photographs no significant results were obtained), but I'm no expert. :o

(I'm German, therefore sorry for any mistakes in writing. I do my best!)

EDIT: Thank you for posting the abstact, Loss Leader!
 
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Here's an abstract: http://www.bial.com/imagem/Bolsa6102.pdf


It seems that the professor did a properly controlled study and got no effect ... so she just loosened the standards and removed most of the blinding until she got the answers she wanted. Genius.
 
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Before I look, I'm going to guess that Radin presented this as a study that supports psi.

Also interesting is the claim that prior research on mediums was 'high quality'.

Linda
 
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-to-win-million-dollars.html

I was right. Radin presents this work as though it supports psi. And not only that, he presents Storm et. al. 201O, a paper which Ersby shredded in this thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169552&page=3, as supportive of psi. And then to top it off, he presents his utterly false sample size calculation as an excuse for why he doesn't take the MDC. Please tell me that Radin is shunned by his parapsychological colleagues for such poor scholarship.

Linda
 
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Before I look, I'm going to guess that Radin presented this as a study that supports psi.

And why he should not present this as a study that supports psi? Many psychics - not all - needs an object of the deceased person to help his or her concentration. An example is Jeanne Laplace.

http://www.parapsych.org/convention/2010_PA_Convention_Abstracts_and_Program.pdf

To obtain the paranormal knowledge she had to feel a kind of „link‟ with the „target‟ person. The paranormal information occurred mainly through visions, that is, various hallucinations − vivid images that were objectified and projected seemingly outside herself on a „virtual screen‟. These were either black and white or in color, motionless or in motion, silent or involving voices (therefore including auditory hallucinations) and more or less allegorical. Laplace also had gustatory, olfactory and tactile hallucinations. In order of importance, the receipt of paranormal information was experienced as visions and „impulsive words‟.

Often she used objects, which were put to her disposal by the consultants, and which acted as „support‟. According to Osty, who organized and carried out public and private séances with her for eight years, such objects helped her concentration, acting like a sort of thread, and enabling knowledge of the „target‟ by paranormal means, irrespective of space and time.


Also interesting is the claim that prior research on mediums was 'high quality'. Linda

Yes, and this statement is correct concerning the research with mediums like Leonora Piper and Gladys Osborne Leonard. This is exactly what is said in the book "Mediumship and Survival" by Alan Gauld in the end of Chapter Two, and this book is recommended even by skeptics.

http://www.ntskeptics.org/news/news2003-09-03.htm

http://www.csicop.org/bib/648
Mediumship And Survival: A Century of Investigations
Alan Gauld
1982, Heinemann; xiv+287p., plates
survival, survival:defense

Alan Gauld is an academic psychologist who has written genuinely critical discussions of various aspects of the paranormal. In this book he presents evidence for survival based largely though not exclusively on mediumistic communications in the records of the British and American SPRs. Probably neither skeptics nor believers will like his conclusions, which are essentially non-committal. He finds that there is some evidence which is hard to discount, but it faces the difficulty that it is exceedingly difficult to explain how survival could occur in the face of the evident dependence of consciousness on the brain. It is possible to construct a rational case both for and against survival. Even if survival does occur, it may not be consoling. We could fade out gradually, or could survive in a zombie-like state. This is is probably the best modern discussion of the question that we have.
 
Hi folks!

A new study on mediumship has been done at the University of Virginia (by Emily W. Kelly, co-author of Irreducible Mind).

It's currently at press and will be published in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease.

I found the paper's name on Dean Radin's blog, so I googled.

These seem to be the results:
Google --> An Investigation of Mediums Who Claim to Give Information about Deceased Persons --> first link (I can't post the direct link because I'm a newbie here ;))

Any previous thoughts on this? I think that the researcher gave photographs to the mediums is a possible weakness (in a trial without photographs no significant results were obtained), but I'm no expert. :o

(I'm German, therefore sorry for any mistakes in writing. I do my best!)

EDIT: Thank you for posting the abstact, Loss Leader!

It looks like I have quite a bit of interesting reading material to really delve into.

But Woomaster, I also wanted to say welcome, and your English looks perfect.

Julia
 
And why he should not present this as a study that supports psi? Many psychics - not all - needs an object of the deceased person to help his or her concentration.

Another way to put it is that the amount of information which psychics provide corresponds to the amount of information they obtain through normal means. This is the hypothesis which was tested. And since psi is about gaining information through non-normal means, this was not a test of psi.

Yes, and this statement is correct concerning the research with mediums like Leonora Piper and Gladys Osborne Leonard. This is exactly what is said in the book "Mediumship and Survival" by Alan Gauld in the end of Chapter Two, and this book is recommended even by skeptics.

Well, I don't know whether Gauld or Anthony Campbell have any sort of expertise in making that call, but Martin Gardner paints quite a different story in his review of the 'research' regarding Leonora Piper, including the information that she failed testing when simple controls were put in place.

However, regardless of whether any of these opinions can be trusted, the study of these two mediums did not follow a methodology which can be considered high quality (i.e. research from which reliable and valid conclusions can be drawn), so calling it such would be false.

Linda
 
Another way to put it is that the amount of information which psychics provide corresponds to the amount of information they obtain through normal means. This is the hypothesis which was tested. And since psi is about gaining information through non-normal means, this was not a test of psi.

But why do you think that "the amount of information which psychics provide corresponds to the amount of information they obtain through normal means"? Why they could not provide much more informaton they could obtain through normal means? An example, Emilly Kelly says: "(1) In the
hope of focusing the reading on the intended deceased person, I sent photographs of the deceased to the mediums, but provided no other information;"

So, let's say this happened: the psychic see the photographs, and then the psychic says:

a) the full name of the deceased

b) the way which this person died

c) the year of the birth and death

d) the name of the relatives

e) the name of the pets

f) etc.

Isn't this MUCH MORE information than the psychic could obtain by normal means only seeing a photograph? I think we can say there are paranormal means involved.

Well, I don't know whether Gauld or Anthony Campbell have any sort of expertise in making that call, but Martin Gardner paints quite a different story in his review of the 'research' regarding Leonora Piper, including the information that she failed testing when simple controls were put in place.

Gardner's critics have so many mistakes that is clear that he never read the original reports. You can find some Gardner's mistakes here: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/08/how-martin-gard.html

And these criticisms against Gardner are only a very small part of all the mistakes he did in his article. For example, "he says that Richard Hodgson died in 1909, when he passed away in 1905. Similarly, Gardner claims that the writer George Pellew died in 1881, when he died in 1892. It could certainly be the case that these mistakes were not the author’s failing…many an editor or typesetter has committed errors as a manuscript passed through their hands on the way to publication. However, it is less easy to forgive other dating errors which can only be attributed to the author. For instance, Gardner asserts that “when [the alleged spirit of] Pellew began coming through Mrs. Piper, Hodgson was so skeptical that he hired detectives to shadow Mrs. Piper and her husband for several weeks to make sure they were not researching information about his friend.” In fact, Hodgson hired detectives almost immediately after he took on the Piper case, around 1887-88, whereas Pellew didn’t die and start ‘coming through’ until 1892. Anybody who has read the original reports of the Piper case would know that Gardner is wrong in this instance – Fred Myers mentions Hodgson’s use of detectives in his 1890 introduction to the ‘British report’ on Mrs. Piper’s mediumship in the Proceedings of the SPR."

And Gardner did much, much more mistakes in his article.

However, regardless of whether any of these opinions can be trusted, the study of these two mediums did not follow a methodology which can be considered high quality (i.e. research from which reliable and valid conclusions can be drawn), so calling it such would be false.Linda

I disagree, anyone who read the original reports will see that the study of these two mediums - and others - did follow a methodology which can be considered high quality. Gardner didn't read the original reports, but Gauld did. A recent article reviewing Piper's case says:

"Because of the ever-present worry of deception, no totally satisfying evidence of the survival of human consciousness was established during this period. James and Hodgson hit on the idea of sending Mrs. Piper to England, where she could be tested by people who were strangers to her, in an environment where there was a guarantee that she could have neither talkative friends nor established agents. Consequently, Mrs. Piper, whose patience seems to have been as extraordinary as her other gifts, set sail for England in November 1889.

During a three month visit, Mrs. Piper stayed in Liverpool with Sir Oliver Lodge, in Cambridge with the Sidgwicks and with Myers, and in London in lodgings chosen by the SPR. Careful precautions were taken. In order to verify that she was not receiving information from confederates, Mrs. Piper was met off the boat at the Liverpool landing stage and carefully escorted throughout the length of her stay in England. She was shadowed day and night by private detectives, although the modest retainer supplied by the SPR seems scarcely sufficient to pay for the network of spies that such an explanation would have required (Gauld, 1968). She was furthermore required to allow the SPR to read all her incoming mail and to have free access to her belongings. Her hosts were careful to lock away family albums and Bibles. Myers provided Mrs. Piper and her teenaged daughters, whom she had refused to leave behind, a servant who knew nothing about the SPR or its members. Lodge, in whose house the most remarkable displays occurred, had, by chance recently changed his entire household staff. He spoke for all of the investigators when he insisted: “I took every precaution I could possibly think of”
."

Mrs. Piper Revisited. Australian Journal of Parapsychology 2001, Volume 1, Number 1, pp. 9-29

And these are only a very small part of the precautions. The research has a very high quality, and Piper - and Gladys Obosrne Leonard - seems undeniably to have had some sort of paranormal faculty.
 
But why do you think that "the amount of information which psychics provide corresponds to the amount of information they obtain through normal means"? Why they could not provide much more informaton they could obtain through normal means? An example, Emilly Kelly says: "(1) In the
hope of focusing the reading on the intended deceased person, I sent photographs of the deceased to the mediums, but provided no other information;"

So, let's say this happened: the psychic see the photographs, and then the psychic says:

a) the full name of the deceased

b) the way which this person died

c) the year of the birth and death

d) the name of the relatives

e) the name of the pets

f) etc.

Isn't this MUCH MORE information than the psychic could obtain by normal means only seeing a photograph? I think we can say there are paranormal means involved.

Well, then you have the problem of controlling for 'hot reading' before that information can serve as a test for psi (and presumption of ignorance does not cut it, I'm afraid). I was thinking of providing personal items which do not convey identifying information, such as items which are identical in appearance, but have different owners (plain gold wedding bands, for example). Once you provide items that are identifiable, you are back to testing for normal means of gaining information, rather than testing psi. After all, it is quite possible to find someone's birthdate through normal means.

Gardner's critics have so many mistakes that is clear that he never read the original reports. You can find some Gardner's mistakes here: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/08/how-martin-gard.html

Those aren't particularly compelling criticisms. It starts by saying that Gardner misused terminology by calling her a "direct-voice medium". She does seem to fit the description given for that term, though, so without any elaboration from Prescott, it looks like he is thinking of a very specific criterion which may not be in common use. This isn't much of a criticism. The next criticism simply looks like Prescott misinterpreted what Gardner said. Gardner referred to "other mediums of the time" and Prescott seems to have interpreted this as "most or all mediums of the time". Next Prescott seems again to misinterpret what Gardner said, presuming that Gardner would say that an ability to ignore a small cut is inconsistent with the non-spontaneous nature of her trances, but there's no reason to think Gardner would propose something so nonsensical.

And it goes on and on like that.

However, I guessed that you would find a way to criticize Gardner's summary, so I also pointed out that it doesn't matter, after that.

I disagree, anyone who read the original reports will see that the study of these two mediums - and others - did follow a methodology which can be considered high quality.

It is simply a matter of understanding research methods and design. Observational accounts with spotty controls are very low down on the list of evidence from which reliable and valid conclusions can be drawn. Even observational accounts with careful and tight controls are very low down on that list. So even if we trust all the accounts from the believers who felt that the controls in place were very good, it still fails to be the kind of research methodology that we call 'high quality'.

Linda
 
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Well, then you have the problem of controlling for 'hot reading' before that information can serve as a test for psi (and presumption of ignorance does not cut it, I'm afraid). I was thinking of providing personal items which do not convey identifying information, such as items which are identical in appearance, but have different owners (plain gold wedding bands, for example). Once you provide items that are identifiable, you are back to testing for normal means of gaining information, rather than testing psi. After all, it is quite possible to find someone's birthdate through normal means.

So, if I put a photograph here of a friend of mine, could you try to discover his birthday and other personal facts? You have 1/365 to discover his birthday only by chance. This challenge is only to show to you that is not so easy to discover informations about a person only seeing a photograph, even in this era of internet. This depends if this person is famous or not, if their information are avaliable in internet or not etc. Of course if someone shows me a photograph of Bill Clinton I will know many things about him. But there are billions of people which I don't know nothing about them, for exemple, chineses which works in rice planting. I think the better thing to do is to wait Emily Kellys' article to be published to see how she address the question of hot reading, and to know more about the deceased persons.

Those aren't particularly compelling criticisms. It starts by saying that Gardner misused terminology by calling her a "direct-voice medium". She does seem to fit the description given for that term, though, so without any elaboration from Prescott, it looks like he is thinking of a very specific criterion which may not be in common use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship#Direct_Voice

Direct voice communication involves spirits extracting ectoplasm from living persons (not limited to the medium) to create a spirit voice-box, which enables the spirits to communicate with the living during seances. This form included the medium Leslie Flint

Piper was never this kind of medium.

This isn't much of a criticism. The next criticism simply looks like Prescott misinterpreted what Gardner said. Gardner referred to "other mediums of the time" and Prescott seems to have interpreted this as "most or all mediums of the time".

Apparently there is a mistake in this sentence that even Prescott didn't note. The full sentence is:

"Unlike other mediums of the time, she never produced physical phenomena."

This seems to be wrong again. According to

http://www.spiritwritings.com/leonorapiper.html

"Mrs. Piper did not exhibit physical phenomena, except one single manifestation: she could withdraw the scent from flowers and make them wither in a short time."

Next Prescott seems again to misinterpret what Gardner said, presuming that Gardner would say that an ability to ignore a small cut is inconsistent with the non-spontaneous nature of her trances, but there's no reason to think Gardner would propose something so nonsensical.

And it goes on and on like that.

Gardner says:

Unlike other cases of persons with subliminal personalities, Mrs. Piper’s trances never occurred spontaneously. They never began when she was alone or asleep. Yet whenever a sitter paid for a séance, she had no difficulty going into a trance.

All these sentences are totally wrong. He says of Mrs. Piper’s trances that they “never occurred spontaneously”, despite Myers stating that “[T]he trance has occasionally appeared when it was not desired.” Also, says Gardner, “they never began when she was alone or asleep”. Again, from the same page of the same primary source: “Mrs. Piper believes…that the access has several times come upon her during sleep.” Further, according to Gardner, “whenever a sitter paid for a séance, she had no difficulty going into a trance.” At this point we can be pretty sure that Gardner wasn’t too familiar with Fred Myers’ report on Mrs. Piper, as it continues (yet again on the same page): “These trances cannot always be induced at pleasure. A state of quiet expectancy or ‘self-suggestion’ will usually bring one on; but sometimes the attempt altogether fails.” And in case Gardner missed Myers’ statements, a rebuttal can be also be found on page 1(!) of probably one of the most important primary source reporting on Mrs. Piper’s mediumship, Richard Hodgson’s report in Volume VIII of the Proceedings of the SPR: “Several times Mrs. Piper was unable to go into trance at all.”

And there are MANY additional reasons for thinking that Gardner may not have consulted the original research.

It is simply a matter of understanding research methods and design. Observational accounts with spotty controls are very low down on the list of evidence from which reliable and valid conclusions can be drawn. Even observational accounts with careful and tight controls are very low down on that list. So even if we trust all the accounts from the believers who felt that the controls in place were very good, it still fails to be the kind of research methodology that we call 'high quality'. Linda

Well, this is your opinion, which I disagree. The controls and tests were very good. Piper was able to report things ocurring in another country in the moment of the session, and even to report things that the assistent thought that were wrong and after inquires discovered that these things were right.

An example:

Sitting No. 48. Noon, December 26th.
Present: O. L., A. L., M. L., and Briscoe (taking notes).
“Hn ! How are you, Captain? You are all right. What have you done with Aunt Anne’s ring? Well, give it to me. I told her all about that. She was very much pleased that you had kept it all that while. Very good thing, wasn’t it? She said that she was very sorry that Charley ate the bird—the chicken—and made himself sick. He has had a trouble with his stomach. Her Charley. [Mentioned also near end of Sitting No. 46.] And he has been troubled for some little time. The bird made him sick. Some kind of bird. Quite sick. It troubled him a good deal. You write and ask him. But it is so. You will find it was. He will tell you. [He is in Canada, but I have written to find out.] (See note, p. 520.) Was a little feverish with it. That’s what is the matter.”

NOTE added September, 1890.—Concerning the episode recorded at the beginning of the above sitting : I wrote to a cousin who had emigrated last October to join her brother (the “Charley” referred to) in Manitoba, .asking her if he had eaten any particular bird about Christmas time which had disagreed with him. Only recently have I got full information on the subject, the unsportsmanlike character of the act possibly, but more likely the difficulty of realising any sense in the inquiry, being responsible for some of the delay. The evidence now obtained is as follows :—
“ The boys shot a prairie hen as they were coming home one night, near the beginning of December, out of season, when there was a fine for killing these birds. So we had to hide it. It was hung for about a fortnight, and a few days before Christmas we eat it, Charley eating most. The bird didn’t make him ill, but he was ill at the time, having the grippe. He went to town either that night or next day, and was certainly worse when he returned.”


Another example:

My mother-in-law, on her return from Europe, spent a morning vainly seeking for her bank-book. Mrs. Piper, on being shortly after-wards asked where this book was, described the place so exactly that it was instantly found. I was told by her that the spirit of a boy named Robert F. was the companion of my lost infant. The F.’s were cousins of my wife living in a distant city. On my return home I mentioned the incident to my wife, saying, “ Your cousin did lose a baby, didn’t she? but Mrs. Piper was wrong about its sex, name, and age.” I then learned that Mrs. Piper had been quite right in all those particulars, and that mine was the wrong impression.

Another example:

The aunt who purported to “ take control” directly was a much better personation, having a good deal of the cheery strenuousness of speech of the original. She spoke, by the way, on this occasion, of the condition of health of two members of the family in New York, of which we knew nothing at the time, and which was afterwards corroborated by letter. We have repeatedly heard from Mrs. Piper in trance things of which we were not at the moment aware.

Another example:

Thus, on my mother-in-law’s second visit to the medium she was told that one of her daughters was suffering from a severe pain in her back on that day. This altogether unusual occurrence, unknown to the sitter, proved to be true.


And I could go on and on... for more informations about the controls and results, the better thing you can do is to read the original reports, or, at least, read the book "Mediumship and Survival" by Gauld.
 
So, if I put a photograph here of a friend of mine, could you try to discover his birthday and other personal facts? You have 1/365 to discover his birthday only by chance. This challenge is only to show to you that is not so easy to discover informations about a person only seeing a photograph, even in this era of internet. This depends if this person is famous or not, if their information are avaliable in internet or not etc. Of course if someone shows me a photograph of Bill Clinton I will know many things about him. But there are billions of people which I don't know nothing about them, for exemple, chineses which works in rice planting. I think the better thing to do is to wait Emily Kellys' article to be published to see how she address the question of hot reading, and to know more about the deceased persons.

That's not how it is done. One starts with the name and gathers the relevant information. The picture is used only to identify which person plus their identifying information is to be used at the time of the reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship#Direct_Voice

Direct voice communication involves spirits extracting ectoplasm from living persons (not limited to the medium) to create a spirit voice-box, which enables the spirits to communicate with the living during seances. This form included the medium Leslie Flint

Piper was never this kind of medium.

There is a link there which takes you to the main article on direct-voice mediums which specifically describes mediums who speak with different voices which are supposed to represent the different spirits which are channelled (as well as other forms of the generation of sounds). This describes Piper. The wikipedia description clearly includes methods of generating sound, including speech issuing from the medium, under this description, and does not limit this to sound issuing only from ectoplasm. I don't know whether or not the wikipedia article is correct, but clearly the mistake does not arise from Gardner.

Apparently there is a mistake in this sentence that even Prescott didn't note. The full sentence is:

"Unlike other mediums of the time, she never produced physical phenomena."

There is no mistake. It still means that you have to misinterpret Gardner as saying "unlike many or all other mediums of the time...". It is nonsensical to base a criticism on a misinterpretation.

But again, it doesn't matter in the least whether or not Gardner is accurate, since even if he is dead wrong, the work cannot classed as high quality research as it fails to use a methodology which is capable of allowing reliable and valid conclusions to be drawn.

Well, this is your opinion, which I disagree.

This is not my opinion. It is simply the foundation of the scientific method. Stories are meaningless in the absence of establishing a baseline, for example.

Linda
 
That's not how it is done. One starts with the name and gathers the relevant information. The picture is used only to identify which person plus their identifying information is to be used at the time of the reading.

I really think is better to wait Kelly's article to be published to see exactly how this study was done and what kind of information the mediums gave (e.g., if the mediums gave very private informations...)

There is a link there which takes you to the main article on direct-voice mediums which specifically describes mediums who speak with different voices which are supposed to represent the different spirits which are channelled (as well as other forms of the generation of sounds). This describes Piper. The wikipedia description clearly includes methods of generating sound, including speech issuing from the medium, under this description, and does not limit this to sound issuing only from ectoplasm. I don't know whether or not the wikipedia article is correct, but clearly the mistake does not arise from Gardner.

The direct link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_voice - clearly says: "Direct voice (or independent voice) is defined as a paranormally produced voice often in seances conducted in the presence of a physical medium." Only because a medium talks a little different of the normal state this does not make the voice paranormal. I can imitate a german accent, this does not make my voice paranormally produced.

These "mediums who speak with different voices which are supposed to represent the different spirits which are channelled" do much more than merely different voices. These voices don't appear to come from the mouth of the medium (the direct link says: "Borogas heard many voices from around the room speaking both Russian and English."). Of course can be ventriloquism, but the fact is that in Piper's case there was no doubt that the voice of the spirit came from her mouth. That's why Piper can't be considered a direct voice medium in any case. In all others cases the voice seems to be originationg from another place - that why is DIRECT voice, because the spirit don't appear to be using the medium's mouth.



There is no mistake. It still means that you have to misinterpret Gardner as saying "unlike many or all other mediums of the time...". It is nonsensical to base a criticism on a misinterpretation.

You can consider this part to be right, but the second part "she never produced physical phenomena" is wrong, according to Nandor Fodor Encyclopaedia of Psychic Science. The fact is that is very difficult to find a sentence in Gardner's article that is not wrong in a way or another.

But again, it doesn't matter in the least whether or not Gardner is accurate, since even if he is dead wrong, the work cannot classed as high quality research as it fails to use a methodology which is capable of allowing reliable and valid conclusions to be drawn.

This is not my opinion. It is simply the foundation of the scientific method. Stories are meaningless in the absence of establishing a baseline, for example.
Linda

The researches tested if a detective by hot reading could obtain the correct information that she gave, and the detectives failed. You can use this as a baseline. You can also try to contact a magician and see if this magician could have the same level of success which Piper had, like a control (in the same conditions that Piper did, of course). But I remember that Piper was tested by magicians too (Hodgson was a magician).
 
The direct link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_voice - clearly says: "Direct voice (or independent voice) is defined as a paranormally produced voice often in seances conducted in the presence of a physical medium." Only because a medium talks a little different of the normal state this does not make the voice paranormal. I can imitate a german accent, this does not make my voice paranormally produced.

These "mediums who speak with different voices which are supposed to represent the different spirits which are channelled" do much more than merely different voices. These voices don't appear to come from the mouth of the medium (the direct link says: "Borogas heard many voices from around the room speaking both Russian and English."). Of course can be ventriloquism, but the fact is that in Piper's case there was no doubt that the voice of the spirit came from her mouth. That's why Piper can't be considered a direct voice medium in any case. In all others cases the voice seems to be originationg from another place - that why is DIRECT voice, because the spirit don't appear to be using the medium's mouth.

Ah, I see. Well considering that there are enough different accounts that most anything said about her could be found to be correct or found to be wrong, I'm not surprised that someone said this about her at one point.

You can consider this part to be right, but the second part "she never produced physical phenomena" is wrong, according to Nandor Fodor Encyclopaedia of Psychic Science. The fact is that is very difficult to find a sentence in Gardner's article that is not wrong in a way or another.

Yup, it looks like there are plenty of sources for misinformation about her.

The researches tested if a detective by hot reading could obtain the correct information that she gave, and the detectives failed. You can use this as a baseline. You can also try to contact a magician and see if this magician could have the same level of success which Piper had, like a control (in the same conditions that Piper did, of course). But I remember that Piper was tested by magicians too (Hodgson was a magician).

Those are the kinds of baselines favored by parapsychologists since they seem to maximize the probability of obtaining a false result, but they wouldn't pass muster in other scientific fields. Why on earth would anyone think that she collected information in the same way way a detective would, or that she used magic tricks?
 
Ah, I see. Well considering that there are enough different accounts that most anything said about her could be found to be correct or found to be wrong, I'm not surprised that someone said this about her at one point.


Yup, it looks like there are plenty of sources for misinformation about her.

Of course there are plenty of sources for misinformation about her, that's why it's so important to read the original reports, a lesson that Gardner did not learned in his life.


Those are the kinds of baselines favored by parapsychologists since they seem to maximize the probability of obtaining a false result, but they wouldn't pass muster in other scientific fields. Why on earth would anyone think that she collected information in the same way way a detective would, or that she used magic tricks?

Why? Because the researchers were testing all the ways possible trying to discover how he could obtain information by normal means! They were very careful in this and that's why their research has high quality. But you need to read the original reports to see this.

Well, now I have other things to do.

Best wishes.
 
Vic, think of it this way.

If someone sends me a picture, i know where the picture came from. If the person sending me the picture tells me their relation to the person i now can have a short list of people that the picture could be of. From the short list i can find other pictures through various research , ( private investigators, internet searches, interviews, cold calling, etc.) and then figure out the person's name. From there it is the most simple thing in the world to find out all kinds of information, you have the persons name and location.

So honestly, knowing that the picture would be of " your friend" , and having it sent through the mail. I could pinpoint the person and find out all sorts of incidental information if i had a reason to do so ( such as proving i had some kind of power.).

And if you lied and it wasn't a friend of yours? Well i can always retreat to " he was being purposely misleading.".

So i can not only say " if i knew the person running the test's real name, and their relation ( even incidental) to the person in the picture, and had any kind of locational starting point ( knowing where the person running the test lives, having a vague idea of where the person in the photograph lives, etc.) , i could easily give information that most would consider " paranormal.", but i can, and have, outlined exactly how one would do it. This isn't rocket science Vic, and i can only guess that your inability to see how easy this is to do is willful ignorance.

We arn't living in the dark ages where personal information was insignificant, and sparse. We are living in 2010, where anyone with a laptop and some free time can find you.
 
Of course there are plenty of sources for misinformation about her, that's why it's so important to read the original reports, a lesson that Gardner did not learned in his life.

Well, we don't really know that Gardner didn't read the report you refer to. There seems to be a great deal of flexibility in what was said about her, so any synthesis of this can differ from how someone else would put it together. Especially if one person is showing skepticism and the other belief.

Why? Because the researchers were testing all the ways possible trying to discover how he could obtain information by normal means! They were very careful in this and that's why their research has high quality. But you need to read the original reports to see this.

But clearly their tests would be irrelevant if they didn't represent the way she obtained information. And again, if she doesn't go about gathering information in the way a detective would, who cares whether or not a detective was successful. Ruling out whether someone could obtain information through normal means is useless under these conditions.

Linda
 
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The researches tested if a detective by hot reading could obtain the correct information that she gave, and the detectives failed.
Need to see the reports on this before trusting it, while keeping in mind the dictum that it takes a magician to catch a magician.


Vitor Moura said:
You can use this as a baseline.
No.


Vitor Moura said:
You can also try to contact a magician and see if this magician could have the same level of success which Piper had, like a control (in the same conditions that Piper did, of course).
I have yet to find a medium's claim to rival the admittedly mundane accomplishment of Harry Kellar as told to, and reported by, Harry Houdini. I type Houdini's account here, since any summary by me would confuse more than clarify. The ellipses mine and have been put in place to help disguise the method:

An incident related to me by the late Harry Kellar shows in a striking way what can be done ...

He had met in Hong Kong a troupe of travelling players, known as the "Loftus Troupe" which was featuring Jefferson De Angelus. Among these players was one, Jim Mass, who, during a discussion of Spiritualism scoffed at anyone's belief in it. Kellar told him to visit his hotel the following night and he would be given a seance. Mass did and Kellar pretended to go into a deep trance rolling his eyes and imitating all the other effects. While in the trance he told Mass his history from the time he ran away from Newark, N.J., relating his trials and tribulations and his efforts to make a success on the stage up to the time when a young lady committed suicide in San Francisco because of his jealousy. Then Kellar turned to him and said:

"What is your name?"

"Jim Mass," was the answer.

"That is not your right name," Kellar retorted, "your right name is James Cropsey!"

"It is a lie," said Mass.

"No, it is not a lie, for I see before me your name. I see that your father has just died of a broken heart because of your behaviour. I see your mother writing you a letter to that effect, begging you to come home and be her son again. I see the grave of your father and on the tombstone is inscribed, 'James Cropsey.'"

Kellar came out of the trance and Mass sprang up exclaiming:

"My God, you have told me things that only the Almight and I know!"

Kellar claimed to Mass that he did not know anything which had transpired in the trance. The following day a letter came from Mass' mother telling him of the death of his father. This fully convinced him that Kellar had strong mediumistic powers, and to such an extent that when they met a few days later and Keller told him that it was all a fake, Mass refused to believe it.
Now if you take the time to research this and thereby discover the method that Kellar used, I suspect you will come back with an objection along the lines that neither Piper nor the recent subjects in Kelly's tests could or would have used such a method. To this, my response is that you have no way of knowing this and are instead merely presuming it. That is why the methodology is critical, as fls as pointed out.


Vitor Moura said:
But I remember that Piper was tested by magicians too (Hodgson was a magician).
Hodgson was hardly an expert conjuror. I, too, am a magician, but that does not qualify me as an observer, just as having a Bachelor of Science in engineering would not qualify me to assess the structural integrity of a high rise.
 
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Why must we always have antiquated claims? Leonora Piper died in 1950---it's far too late to test her now. How are we to investigate her claims, when she's been dead 60 years? All we can do is analyze anecdotes about her, and anecdotes aren't evidence.

If Piper was really psychic and being visited by spirit guides, why was her French spirit guide, Phiniut, who was supposed to be a doctor in life, unable to recognize the French words for common remedies available in his own purported lifetime? The only French that "Phinuit" knew was the French that Ms. Piper knew, which she (and most Americans) were exposed to due to common usage. Even the anecdotes make Ms. Piper look like a charlatan.

If psychic powers really exist, then why aren't there any modern-day psychics that can prove their powers under laboratory conditions? Remove their ability to cheat and/or fish for information, and their powers magically dry up.

It would be simple to arrange a test and allow the "psychic" to touch objects owned by the test subjects. Simply give each test subject a yellow #2 pencil and have them write with it for a week, or a month, or whatever amount of time the "psychic" says it takes to "imprint" an object. Subjects could be instructed not to let anyone else use their magic pencils, not to wear perfume or cologne while they are "imprinting" their magic pencils, not to chew on the pencils or the erasers, etc. After the "imprinting" period is over, collect the pencils and give the pencils to the "psychic" and let them predict away. My own prediction is that the "psychic" powers will desert the "psychic" yet again.

Every clinical trial thus far that has suggested that extrasensory perception might exist has been found to be flawed while undergoing peer review.

Here's an abstract: http://www.bial.com/imagem/Bolsa6102.pdf


It seems that the professor did a properly controlled study and got no effect ... so she just loosened the standards and removed most of the blinding until she got the answers she wanted. Genius.

Yes, brilliant, isn't it? By providing the pictures, they gave the so-called mediums so very many clues. It isn't that hard to look at a single photograph of an 80-year old woman and accurately guess that "She lost someone she cared deeply about in WWII." Whereupon the "proxy" says, "Yes, her husband," which gives the medium a whole host of information about how the dead woman must have lived. The first run, with insignificant data, was the correct run. All the rest of the testing was ruined by lax controls and standards. UR so smrat, Loss Leader :hug1:
 
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Why must we always have antiquated claims? Leonora Piper died in 1950---it's far too late to test her now. How are we to investigate her claims, when she's been dead 60 years? All we can do is analyze anecdotes about her, and anecdotes aren't evidence.

If Piper was really psychic and being visited by spirit guides, why was her French spirit guide, Phiniut, who was supposed to be a doctor in life, unable to recognize the French words for common remedies available in his own purported lifetime? The only French that "Phinuit" knew was the French that Ms. Piper knew, which she (and most Americans) were exposed to due to common usage. Even the anecdotes make Ms. Piper look like a charlatan.
It's worse than that. On another forum I responded to some Piper claims as part of a list by Montague Keen listing the supposedly 20 best cases for psi. I quoted the Piper portions on this forum some time ago. Here is that portion again:

[#20: The Lethe case]

The claim: It is best to simply quote Keen (2003):
Leonora Piper channeled F.W.H. Myers spirit. George Dorr was testing her. He asked “Myers” what the word “Lethe” meant to him (because Myers was a classical scholar and Piper was not). Piper came out with “a considerable number of references,” many that Dorr did not know. He investigated and found them to be “references to persons, incidents, descriptions and places found in Ovid’s Metamorphoses, which gives an account of the mythological Hadean stream of Lethe…”

Later, Sir Oliver Lodge heard what Dorr had done and asked Mrs. Willett, who was also channeling Myers, the same question. Willett gave another long list of references, different from Piper’s. “Virtually all of these were found to derive not from Ovid but from an entirely different account connected with Aeneas’s visit to Elysium with Anchisis, his father, as described in Book Six of Virgil’s Aeneid, on which Myers had once written a scholarly commentary.”

Since neither Piper nor Willett (Coombes-Tennant) were classical scholars, this knowledge, especially across two mediums, is very strong evidence of survival.
The facts:Keen himself said that the references Piper gave weren’t specific at all but were “oblique.” In other words, they had to be interpreted to fit. And NONE of them actually said that Lethe is the stream bounding the shores of the Elysian fields.

Keen also said of the references that Willett gave that they were “allusive,” again meaning that they had to be interpreted. And NONE of the allusions were even to the work in which Lethe is found.

To sum it up: Neither medium claiming to channel Myers gave any information answering the question about Lethe. In fact, the mediums gave distinctly different answers which had to be wildly interpreted to even put them in the same ballpark as the work that mentions Lethe.

Nothing to debunk.


This was also on Keen's list:

#17: George Pelham

The claim: George Pelham was one of Leonore Piper’s many “controls” who provided a long string of unknowable information to Hodgson over many years of sittings. Since Pelham was a pseudonym (and Piper never learned the man’s real name), Piper could not conceivably have researched anything about him. Pelham successfully recognized thirty people he knew when he was alive, and never once falsely recognized someone he did not know. The only person he knew when alive whom he failed to recognize was Miss Warner who was a lady when he appeared as a control but who was a child when he was alive.


The facts:

1. Pelham is a pseudonym. In 1888, Pelham sat once with Piper without revealing his real name. In 1892, he died of a fall.

2. While I do not know Pelham’s real name, even the Piper supporters admit he had been a member of ASPR.

3. Pelham appeared through Piper one month after his death and then periodically for six more years. He appeared for over 150 sitters.

4. Pelham was a close friend of Hodgson.

5. It is inconceivable that 30 people could verify that Pelham recognized them without revealing to Piper who Pelham actually was.

6. In addition, Hodgson admits that both he and Piper knew that Pelham had known Miss Warner as a child. This is not possible without Piper knowing who Pelham was.

7. Even Hodgson admits that some of Piper’s other controls were either fraudulent or unknowing extensions of her personality without real paranormal attributes (most notably Phinuit and the “Imperator Band.” Piper also claimed Johan Sebastian Bach as a control.)

8. Of all of Piper’s controls, Pelham is the only one not to speak and the only one to communicate with automatic writing. One could assume this is because Pelham was a friend of Hodgson’s and Hodgson might notice differences in speech patterns.

So the evidence boils down to Pelham recognizing people he knew when alive, but since Piper knew who he was and her primary sitter also knew him, this is no big deal.


There is nothing to debunk.

Hodgson's ideas of strict controls seem to have been the inspiration for Professor Gary Schwartz's controls during his "Afterlife Experiments." In those trials when John Edward was giving a failing reading for a sitter, Schwartz piped up during the reading and said that Edward's comments applied to a deceased family member of his (Schwartz). He counted those comments as hits.

Piper was a fraud. The evidence is all but conclusive in that direction with only the most tenuous of wispy hope pointing in the opposite direction.
 
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