Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Machiavelli]

="Justinian2"The gist is that the knife was 8cm long and slammed into the neck with considerable force. The kitchen knife would have gone through the neck

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This was the theory of Torre and Patumi, the logical grounds of which were found to be inconsistent and rejected by the court.
Whatever you believe, anyway the fact is the only wound not compatible with the kitchen knife is the one on the right sideof the neck. The compatibility with the other wounds is what the court claims and what no expert explicitly dismisses.

 

[Justinian2]

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This was the theory of Torre and Patumi, the logical grounds of which were found to be inconsistent and rejected by the court.
Whatever you believe, anyway the fact is the only wound not compatible with the kitchen knife is the one on the right sideof the neck. The compatibility with the other wounds is what the court claims and what no expert explicitly dismisses.

Thank you. I stand corrected. From page 120 of the translation:

In the region on the opposite side, i.e. the right, there was another cut-*‐‑wound about 1 cm and a half long and some 4 cm deep. These wounds are consistent with the photos showing the result of substantial blood loss and must have caused significant anaemia.

page 121:

He ruled out that the knife (Exhibit 36) could have caused the wound on the opposite side (still inflicted on the neck but on the right side) because of the size of the wound (1 cm and a half with a depth of 4 cm) and the fact that at 4 cm from the tip the width of the blade of the knife is about 3 cm and therefore much larger than the width of the wound (as indicated, 1.5cm).

Just to spot check the translation:

Your original text:

Prendeva quindi in considerazione il coltello reperto 36: trattavasi di coltello con lama lunga circa cm. 17,5; un dorso che è spesso circa 1- 1,5 millimetri e un' altezza che nel punto massimo è di 3 centimetri. Escludeva la compatibilità di tale coltello con la ferita da ultimo menzionata per le dimensioni della stessa, lunga un centimetro o anche un centimetro e 2 e un tramite di 4 centimetri.

A computorized on-line translation:

Then take into account finding the knife 36: Long blade knife was a matter of about cm. 17.5; a back that is often about 1 - 1.5 mm and a 'height at the point of maximum 3 cm. Rule out its compatibility with a knife wound to the last mentioned of the same size, long an inch or an inch and a 2 by 4 centimeters.

The Massei translation:

He then considered the knife identified as Exhibit 36: this is a knife whose blade is 17.5 cm in length, with a thickness of 1 -*‐‑ 1.5 mm everywhere, and a maximum height of 3 cm. He excluded the compatibility of this knife with the last-*‐‑mentioned wound above because of its dimensions; one centimetre, or [maybe] even one centimetre point 2 [millimetres]14, and a depth of 4 centimetres.

 

[Katody Matrass]

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Whatever you believe, anyway the fact is the only wound not compatible with the kitchen knife is the one on the right sideof the neck. The compatibility with the other wounds is what the court claims and what no expert explicitly dismisses.

Whatever you believe, the kitchen knife doesn't explain the existing evidence - it's that simple. You not only have to introduce bizarre postulates about how and why it got to the cottage to even consider it as a murder weapon, you still need another knife to explain the wounds and the bloody imprint. That simply makes no sense at all when a single knife scenario perfectly fits all the evidence.

 

[Mary_H]

You're joking, right? You didn't just say that? LMAO, you have got to be kidding. That's what you're resorting to now Chris? And Im sure the mods will have no problem with that little comment, whereas anyone who disagrees with the pack gets suspended left and right...

Im sure what Loverofzion mean to say, is that there have been a lot of high profile cases in the states where white women accuse minorities for crimes they commited or crimes that never happened. Examples:

Casey Anthony accusing hispanic nanny of killing her daughter
Susan Smith accusing black man of killing her children
Crazy lady (forgot her name, and really dont care) who accused an Obama supporter of carving a backwards B on her face...

I'm going to have to differ with you on this one, Solange. I think what loverofzion blurted out reveals a lot more about him than about the facts. The cases you cite do involve false accusations by white women of black men (white men do it, too, as in the case of Charles Stuart of Boston, who murdered his wife and said a black man did it). But loverofzion wrote:

"There is sadly a long ugly history in the U.S. of white women falsely accusing black men of sexual, violent crimes."

There is most definitely a long, ugly history in the United States of black people of both genders being falsely accused, over-prosecuted and exorbitantly sentenced, for all kinds of alleged crimes. To my mind, though, what loverofzion proposed doesn't strike a chord, although if he were to provide citations, I might change my mind.

I get the feeling he is trying to conjure a stereotype from the characters in To Kill A Mockingbird, in which a black man is falsely accused of raping a white woman, although even in that case it was the woman's father who made the accusation.

As some of us have tried to explain, the fact that Rudy is black and Amanda is white is only incidental to this case, and doesn't represent racial bias or any given American pattern of behavior. On the other hand, the fact that Amanda is a woman at all seems to have led to an enormous wave of misogynistic posts about her, especially in the first two years or so of the case. I'm not sure I would agree with Chris that loverofzion hates only white women, but I would give some thought to the idea he might hate women like Amanda.

 

[LondonJohn]

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This was the theory of Torre and Patumi, the logical grounds of which were found to be inconsistent and rejected by the court.
Whatever you believe, anyway the fact is the only wound not compatible with the kitchen knife is the one on the right sideof the neck. The compatibility with the other wounds is what the court claims and what no expert explicitly dismisses.

True enough. But as has been said before, every single non-serrated blade in the entire world is compatible with the slashing wounds. And the non-compatibility with the stabbing wound means the prosecution has to propose the presence of two knives (at least) at Meredith's throat, if they want to present the kitchen knife as a murder weapon. And they therefore suggest the highly improbable scenario of two or three assailants all crowded round Meredith, each holding his/her own knife at her throat.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

knife wounds

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This was the theory of Torre and Patumi, the logical grounds of which were found to be inconsistent and rejected by the court.
Whatever you believe, anyway the fact is the only wound not compatible with the kitchen knife is the one on the right sideof the neck. The compatibility with the other wounds is what the court claims and what no expert explicitly dismisses.

Machiavelli,

It is a better description of the situation to say that one wound is incompatible with the larger knife, and the second wound is disputed. You state that the court rejected Torre's and Patumi's expert opinion; therefore, the matter is closed. However, the court's reasoning on many points was challenged by the appeal documents, and I stated why I found the Massei report unconvincing on the question of one of the wounds in message 5549 on 9 September. Massei appears to believe that the kitchen knife could make one wound if it were not plunged to its full depth. The notion that the knife would be used in this way is debatable, at the very least.

However, I still see no reason to discard the hypothesis that one knife was used to make all three of the wounds, whereas the hypothesis that the kitchen knife was used demands a second knife even in your scenario.

 

[Solange305]

When Amanda wrote "my inner Nazi" or whatever it was, she was being ironic. Pretty common in that age group.

How is that ironic? I see no irony in that.

Im 30, I have two brothers, one is 23 and the other is 24. I have never heard nor will never hear them make a comment like that. Im not trying to demonize Amanda for that comment, but you have no idea whether she was being ironic or serious or what.

 

[Mary_H]

They weren't Mary's arguments - they were Tiziano's.

And you're also misinterpreting the argument. Tiziano was arguing that if Meredith's DNA were conclusively proven to be on the kitchen knife (from genuine primary contact rather than secondary/tertiary transfer or contamination), this would only serve to prove that Meredith had come into contact with that knife at some point. He argued that this didn't necessarily mean that this contact had occurred during the course of her murder - especially if the knife had been used in the girls' kitchen prior to the murder. It's a fairly narrow legal argument, but viable nonetheless.

Thank you, LJ.

 

[Solange305]

The implied question is: how easily could anyone have broken into the boys' house, if all the windows had iron grates and the door had a locked iron grill? If someone were casing the property as a whole, the logical way to attempt entry (in the absence of a strong pair of bolt cutters or a hacksaw + lots of time) would be via the un-grilled widows of the upper storey.

If that door was shut and locked, than I would agree with you that no one would attempt to go in there. Since you are addressing that portion of Michael's comments, why not address all the other good points he made?

More than enough space to sit facing outwards with legs dangling down towards the ground, or to crouch facing inwards. Why is my asking of that question astounding? And would it make a difference whether or not a coat and/or gloves were worn by the intruder?

I thought it was stated that Rudy completely avoided half of the windowsill covered with glass and only used the other half. Judging by that picture, it seems like quite a feat to me. If you have any more questions for Michael, let me know, Ill be glad to be the messenger...

 

[LondonJohn]

If that door was shut and locked, than I would agree with you that no one would attempt to go in there. Since you are addressing that portion of Michael's comments, why not address all the other good points he made?



I thought it was stated that Rudy completely avoided half of the windowsill covered with glass and only used the other half. Judging by that picture, it seems like quite a feat to me. If you have any more questions for Michael, let me know, Ill be glad to be the messenger...

Remind me what Michael's "other good points" were again? If only he himself could come and debate directly on here...................

 

[Solange305]

As some of us have tried to explain, the fact that Rudy is black and Amanda is white is only incidental to this case, and doesn't represent racial bias or any given American pattern of behavior. On the other hand, the fact that Amanda is a woman at all seems to have led to an enormous wave of misogynistic posts about her, especially in the first two years or so of the case. I'm not sure I would agree with Chris that loverofzion hates only white women, but I would give some thought to the idea he might hate women like Amanda.

Although I dont agree necessarily about Loverofzion feeling that way, I see the points you are trying to make and respect them

 

[Gaspode]

Off-topic posts moved to AAH.

Keep on topic please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode

 

[Solange305]

Remind me what Michael's "other good points" were again? If only he himself could come and debate directly on here...................

Im starting to see why he thinks it's a waste of time. I can imagine going back and forth for so long wears on you. I thought the pictures (fair use by they way) showed exactly what he said, that it would be hard to reach from the planter, that the window was quite narrow to avoid the glass, etc.

 

[Solange305]

LMAO, speaking of one of Michael's gems, he just posted a great one.

 

[Mary_H]

How is that ironic? I see no irony in that.

Im 30, I have two brothers, one is 23 and the other is 24. I have never heard nor will never hear them make a comment like that. Im not trying to demonize Amanda for that comment, but you have no idea whether she was being ironic or serious or what.

Welllll, I will venture to say with 100% certainty that she was not being serious. Have you seen the photo?

The irony in this case is from the point of view that nothing could be more ridiculous than Amanda posing as a Nazi. It's kind of like those photo-op displays they have at fairs, where a large man stands behind a board and puts his head in an opening that makes it look like he is a tiny woman in a bikini. It's funny because it's silly, just like someone anachronistically sitting behind an automatic weapon is silly.

It can always be argued that anything about war in general is not a laughing matter, although the film "Dr. Strangelove" proves it can be, when handled ironically.

This subject is ripe for an interesting discussion about persecution through history, but I think it is sufficient to say that when people criticize Amanda in this case, they are just looking for something to criticize.

 

[LondonJohn]

Im starting to see why he thinks it's a waste of time. I can imagine going back and forth for so long wears on you. I thought the pictures (fair use by they way) showed exactly what he said, that it would be hard to reach from the planter, that the window was quite narrow to avoid the glass, etc.

I don't think they showed it would be particularly hard to reach the window from the planter. The problem with many of those photos is a lack of scale - a problem compounded by the small size of the lower window. As I recall, Michael also said that the act of donning gloves and/or an overcoat would render it "impossible" to scale the wall and end up on the window ledge. I also think this is an argument without any foundation, and that it would be eminently possible for an intruder to make this entry wearing a coat and gloves.

BTW, I hope everyone's up to speed on what fair use actually means with regard to photos on internet pages:

http://www.labnol.org/internet/pictures/using-thumbnails-of-copyrighted-images-is-fair-use/1882/

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/how-to-use-images-from-the-internet-legally-under--58522.html

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-c.html

 

[loverofzion]

They weren't Mary's arguments - they were Tiziano's.

And you're also misinterpreting the argument. Tiziano was arguing that if Meredith's DNA were conclusively proven to be on the kitchen knife (from genuine primary contact rather than secondary/tertiary transfer or contamination), this would only serve to prove that Meredith had come into contact with that knife at some point. He argued that this didn't necessarily mean that this contact had occurred during the course of her murder - especially if the knife had been used in the girls' kitchen prior to the murder. It's a fairly narrow legal argument, but viable nonetheless.

The knife had never been used in the girls' kitchen.
What is this new nonsense you are spouting?

Meredith's DNA was found on the BLADE for the love of God.

 

[Mary_H]

Although I dont agree necessarily about Loverofzion feeling that way, I see the points you are trying to make and respect them

Thank you, Solange.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

WWI

Does it really make a difference? The point was the picture and the posting she made. I dont think it makes much of a difference whether it was in an actual Holocaust museum or a regular museum and she was in an exhibit about the Holocaust.

Having said that, I could really care less about her posting. I dont think its that relevant personally, although I dont think bringing it up is akin to "race baiting".

Solange305,

Are you now willing to concede that the machine gun was not part of a holocaust exhibit? I don't think that bringing the holocaust or Goebbels into a discussion about Amanda and her supporters is either accurate or clever.

 

[LondonJohn]

The knife had never been used in the girls' kitchen.
What is this new nonsense you are spouting?

Meredith's DNA was found on the BLADE for the love of God.

They weren't my arguments. They were Tiziano's.

Another one for the "irony" file......