Holocaust deniers, explain this.

[Dogzilla]

I have. You said "there's no evidence of any mass grave at Treblinka". I have produced a photo of a mass grave at Treblinka destroying your statement. Because you are a holocaust denier you are trying to change your claim and lack of basic knowledge about Treblinka.


"Human Ash". Please read the Polish report so you don't look so stupid all the time. You are wasting our time with your ongoing errors. You probably believe Richard Krege wrote a report!


Read the Polish report so you can directly quote "human tissue and ash" from the commission. This will save time. We call this research. You should give it a go!

You've done the math? Show me your work. How many bodies did the magic Germans fit in a cubic meter?

Right now, you've got a blog that quotes excerpts from a book that translated some Polish report that talks about finding some bomb craters and dirt that smells bad. They didn't find anything worth photographing and then it started to rain so they went home.

This is state-of-the-art holocaust research? No wonder the holocaust studies department is the red headed step child of academia. Remember that you're making extraordinary claims here. You need to provide extraordinary proof.

 

[Hans]

Remember that you're making extraordinary claims here. You need to provide extraordinary proof.

Kinda like you saying that all those Jews and other people were settled somewhere....do you ever apply what you say and demand of others to yourself? Or do you consider the term hypocrite a badge of honour?

 

[Dogzilla]

There's a tiny bit more to it than that. Some people have given accounts in which they describe the size of a room and the number of people that were inside of it, and dogzilla does the math and comes up with an implausible number of Jews per square foot and concludes the whole story makes no sense, instead of concluding that maybe the witness didn't take a tape measure with him to measure the size of a gas chamber.

People's memory is faulty. Individuals make mistakes. But if the number of people who cannot fit in a gas chamber didn't fit in the gas chamber, then the total number of people who allegedly were murdered could not have been murdered.

There's where the holocaust story falls flat on its face.

Dogzilla takes his camera to Auschwitz and can't come up with any explanation other than groundwater seepage for water in a ditch, and concludes that it cannot be near a mass grave. Dogzilla sees marks on a wall and concludes a room cannot be a gas chamber. Dogzilla hears that the sonderkommando used wooden crashers to grind up bones, conjures up a picture of elves with mallets, and concludes that it could not have happened.

Dogzilla knows that Auschwitz was built on a swamp and that drainage was a HUGE problem throughout the history of the camp. Dogzilla knows that you can't burn bodies under water no matter how much NT, Meadmaker, and all the other believers in woo wish it is possible. But Dogzilla is right.

Dogzilla sees marks on a wall and thinks the gas chamber at Auschwitz was a fake. The Poles now admit it was a post war reconstruction and that they tore out the walls of the bomb shelter to make it look like it could be a gas chamber. Dogzilla was right again.

Dogzilla thinks that hundreds of Jews cannot smash four million pounds of bone with wooden mallets but that the mental picture of that scene is hilarious. Of course, Dogzilla is right on both accounts.

Never mind that all of these things have been seen by thousands, probably millions, of other people, including historians, academics, building tradesmen, prosecutors, funeral directors and all sorts of others from all walks of life who don't have eyes as keen as dogzilla. He can see past the official story. All those others either aren't as observant, or maybe they've just had the wool pulled over their eyes.

No, they just refuse to do the math because it will force them to believe that Germans are magic.

You don't believe in God? How can that be, because there cannot possibly be a natural explanation for how such powers of logic and observation could be combined in a single human mind. Surely these gifts, beyond the powers of so many others, are a result of divine providence.

Or, maybe, just maybe, the rest of the world isn't as dumb as you think.

What's with the Dog stuff? Are you responding to somebody in some Christian forum? The rest of the world isn't dumb. They just don't care enough about the holocaust to study it in depth and realize just how stupid some of it sounds.

 

[eerok]

That's a link to a blog. How about a link to the report?

I got that link from Saggy. He quote-mined it even though it refutes him ... and he's still doing it in the other thread. No sense of humor?

And stop making demands when you've failed to provide even a single shred of evidence to support your weird Holocaust conspiracy stuff. All you've shown us are unsavory opinions steeped in cultivated ignorance.

 

[Hans]

Ah Dogzilla since no mass graves were unearthed to support the Nazi exterminations that occurred under 'T4' - did that extermination plan also not really exist?

Hmmmm?

 

[Meadmaker]

People's memory is faulty. Individuals make mistakes. But if the number of people who cannot fit in a gas chamber didn't fit in the gas chamber, then the total number of people who allegedly were murdered could not have been murdered.

There's where the holocaust story falls flat on its face.

Except that people, who are not you, have done the math and they would fit and they were murdered. You, who keep saying "do the math" have not done the math. Show us some math and we have something to talk about.

Dogzilla knows that Auschwitz was built on a swamp and that drainage was a HUGE problem throughout the history of the camp. Dogzilla knows that you can't burn bodies under water no matter how much NT, Meadmaker, and all the other believers in woo wish it is possible. But Dogzilla is right.

Except that a lot of other people have looked at this before Dogzilla, and concluded it was possible. However, Dogzilla thinks he is special and endowed with intelligence beyond the ordinary human ken that led so many believers astray.

Dogzilla sees marks on a wall and thinks the gas chamber at Auschwitz was a fake. The Poles now admit it was a post war reconstruction and that they tore out the walls of the bomb shelter to make it look like it could be a gas chamber. Dogzilla was right again.

Except that everyone knows that the Germans destroyed the gas chambers as best they could before they left town and so, obviously, when you see a gas chamber at Auschwitz, you are not seeing it exactly as it was during the war. It is a reconstruction, and nobody had to "admit" to anything. It was part of the official story all along. Dogzilla thinks he is fiendishly clever to see through their deception, and that you have to get up pretty early in the moring to fool Dogzilla, but Dogzilla is wrong again.

Dogzilla thinks that hundreds of Jews cannot smash four million pounds of bone with wooden mallets but that the mental picture of that scene is hilarious. Of course, Dogzilla is right on both accounts.

Except that when researching this particular bit of nonsense, I found all sorts of information about rollers and sieves and machines and all sorts of tools and methods that were actually used to dispose of the remains, and they have nothing to do with your ridiculous mental picture. Dogzilla's comparison of slave laborers disposing of human remains to Santa's elves is one of the most repulsive things ever said on this forum, but more importantly, Dogzilla is wrong again.

No, they just refuse to do the math because it will force them to believe that Germans are magic.

You first. Show us the math, professor.

What's with the Dog stuff? Are you responding to somebody in some Christian forum?

Your arguments from personal incredulity reminded me very much of arguments for Intelligent Design. I was parodying that. Your superior intellect, so much more powerful than the witnesses or the historians, clearly could not have come about by chance. You, Dogzilla, are proof that God exists. The argument can no more be refuted than can your crystal clear arguments about the existence of the gas chambers.

The rest of the world isn't dumb. They just don't care enough about the holocaust to study it in depth and realize just how stupid some of it sounds.

Yeah, those uncaring fools have nearly let this chapter of human history be forgotten through their neglect.

 

[eerok]

Your arguments from personal incredulity reminded me very much of arguments for Intelligent Design.

And would you want to bet that Holocaust denier math amounts to the same darkly humorous pratfall as creationist math? I would.

I also see the parallel. Denying established historical evidence is similar to denying established science. I read talk.origins for over ten years, and I suppose that gave me the ability to laugh at self-imploding mentations like Dogzilla's and Saggy's, but the difference is that Holocaust denial is really hateful as well as ignorant. Where I might tolerate crazy religious blather to some extent, I'm less inclined to tolerate crazy, hateful, bigoted blather, because it is essentially an attack on all of us as human beings.

Good post.

 

[Dogzilla]

Kinda like you saying that all those Jews and other people were settled somewhere....do you ever apply what you say and demand of others to yourself? Or do you consider the term hypocrite a badge of honour?

I never said that all the people you say were murdered by the Nazis were settle somewhere else. You're creating a false dilemma in which we must accept one extraordinary claim (huge numbers of people were buried within impossibly small spaces) or another extraordinary claim that huge numbers of people were stealthily resettled.

We can prove whether or not huge numbers of people were buried at these camps. If they were not buried there, they must have gone somewhere else.

Or, you need to revisit your original premise that there is anybody missing to start with.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Dogzilla, you deny saying everything you've ever said when pressed. Way to stay consistent.

 

[Dogzilla]

Except that everyone knows that the Germans destroyed the gas chambers as best they could before they left town and so, obviously, when you see a gas chamber at Auschwitz, you are not seeing it exactly as it was during the war. It is a reconstruction, and nobody had to "admit" to anything. It was part of the official story all along. Dogzilla thinks he is fiendishly clever to see through their deception, and that you have to get up pretty early in the moring to fool Dogzilla, but Dogzilla is wrong again.

Except that is not true. The story is that the sondercommado blew up one and the Germans destroyed the rest of the gas chambers at Birkinau. Those are ruins today. The gas chamber at the Auschwitz is the one that is shown to tourists. It was not blown up. You'll get conflicting stories about what it is depending on who you ask. Tourists have been told that it is an original gas chamber in its original state. Other tourists have been told it was reconstructed after the war from an air raid shelter. It's also been described as a "symbolic" gas chamber that was created at Auschwitz to give tourists a representation of gas chambers at Birkinau. See the video of David Cole visiting Auschwitz to see the officials giving contradictory stories.

Please read up on the changing history of the holocaust before you make grand pronouncements.

You first. Show us the math, professor.

OK, give me the parameters and I'll do the math.

 

[Nick Terry]

Except that is not true. The story is that the sondercommado blew up one and the Germans destroyed the rest of the gas chambers at Birkinau. Those are ruins today. The gas chamber at the Auschwitz is the one that is shown to tourists. It was not blown up. You'll get conflicting stories about what it is depending on who you ask. Tourists have been told that it is an original gas chamber in its original state. Other tourists have been told it was reconstructed after the war from an air raid shelter. It's also been described as a "symbolic" gas chamber that was created at Auschwitz to give tourists a representation of gas chambers at Birkinau. See the video of David Cole visiting Auschwitz to see the officials giving contradictory stories.

Please read up on the changing history of the holocaust before you make grand pronouncements.

Likewise, you should read up on the history before making silly cliched denier pronouncements. The first Polish report on Auschwitz by Jan Sehn in 1946 explicitly mentioned that Krema I had been converted into an air raid shelter.

OK, give me the parameters and I'll do the math.

Uh-uh. Your claim was that the maths is obvious, so it's entirely up to you to demonstrate this. Including using accurate figures, and not whining and demanding to be spoonfed.

 

[Nick Terry]

I never said that all the people you say were murdered by the Nazis were settle somewhere else. You're creating a false dilemma in which we must accept one extraordinary claim (huge numbers of people were buried within impossibly small spaces) or another extraordinary claim that huge numbers of people were stealthily resettled.

But there's no false dilemma. One can of course think of alternative explanations, such as Nazi UFOs abducted all the deportees, they are simply not very probable, even downright implausible.

It might be that the deportees never reached BST, because they jumped off trains, alive, and either survived or were caught and shot, being buried in a variety of localities and their bodies either found or not found after the war. It wouldn't account for all the victims, but it might affect the totals a bit, say by 1%. There are also reports of trains stopping to offload bodies of those that had suffocated en route, so that some of the deportees died and were buried before they got to the camps. Again, not many, but it's another factor that can be pointed to. More plausible, of course, than Nazi UFOs.

It might also be that the deportees all died en route to their 'real' destinations and are buried, or were cremated, elsewhere. There is not exactly a shortage of mass grave sites in Eastern Europe.

These are just some examples of alternative explanations, none of which add up to survival.

All evidence, however, points to the deportees being cremated at the camp sites, and not being abducted by Nazi UFOs or being buried elsewhere.

We can prove whether or not huge numbers of people were buried at these camps. If they were not buried there, they must have gone somewhere else.

Or, you need to revisit your original premise that there is anybody missing to start with.

The false dilemma is in your 'if... then'. Your 'if... then' is a deduction, not an inference. You have presented no evidence offering any alternative explanation for the fate of the victims. The absence of such evidence ought to prompt you to revisit your original deduction and see whether you aren't in fact grossly mistaken.

Which you obviously are, since your 'if... then' is also premised on a strawman, which has already been disposed of - namely that the bodies of the victims were all buried at the camps and should have been found there.

The sum total of evidence indicates that the victims were cremated, and that these cremations were ongoing for at least some of the victims from a fairly early stage (in the 'Lazarette' set up in all of the AR camps), and from a certain point on (varying between camps) all new victims were immediately cremated without being placed into mass graves. Therefore, not finding bodies to the tune of the number of presumed victims cannot refute the claim. Nor is determining the size of graves going to produce more than a rough guide to the number of victims, since some of them never were interred. Moreover: the sites were trashed after the Nazis left by graverobbers, resulting in disturbed crime scenes, in some cases quite seriously disturbed. As the ashes and cremains were also partially removed from the site, nor can weighing ashes or counting teeth or any other method help us determine the exact number of victims on-site.

You are of course free to seize on these uncertainties to claim that we cannot be 100% certain that x number died at BST, but this has been entirely self-evident ever since the end of the war. To reduce the most probable death tolls therefore requires external evidence, as for example was found with the Hoefle telegram, which reduced the Belzec death toll from 600,000 to 434,000. The discrepancy, it turns out, consisted of victims shot on the spot in western and eastern Galicia, and can be found for example in part in the area of the former Nazi Distrikt Krakau in no fewer than 78 mass graves containing 60,000 bodies of Jews shot to death by the Nazis without ever getting on a train for anywhere.

 

[Saggy]

The sum total of evidence indicates that the victims were cremated,

And impressive evidence it is, the exact process is described by the mastermind of the cremations, Paul Blobel ...

3. During my visit in August I myself observed the burning of bodies in a mass grave near Kiev. This grave was about 55 m. long, 3 m. wide and 2½ m. deep. After the top had been removed the bodies were covered with inflammable material and ignited. It took about two days until the grave burned down to the bottom. I myself observed that the fire had glowed down to the bottom. After that the grave was filled in and the traces were now practically obliterated.

from his confession http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/blobel1.html

Who would have thought bodies could be made to disappear so easily?

 

[Dogzilla]

Likewise, you should read up on the history before making silly cliched denier pronouncements. The first Polish report on Auschwitz by Jan Sehn in 1946 explicitly mentioned that Krema I had been converted into an air raid shelter.

Bad sentence construction on my part. It should've said that the "gas chamber" was converted into an air raid shelter and then after the war was turned back into the "gas chamber." In any case Meadmaker was unaware of the changes and the deception by the Auschwitz deathcampland staff.

Couldn't help but notice that four million victims of the Hitlerites that 'nobody' ever believed in that report.

Uh-uh. Your claim was that the maths is obvious, so it's entirely up to you to demonstrate this. Including using accurate figures, and not whining and demanding to be spoonfed.

OK, five burial pits at Treblinka. Each one measuring 50 x 25 x 10 meters. I got this from Arad. Are these numbers acceptable to you or are there others which you'd like to use?

 

[Dogzilla]

These are just some examples of alternative explanations, none of which add up to survival.

All evidence, however, points to the deportees being cremated at the camp sites, and not being abducted by Nazi UFOs or being buried elsewhere.

If all evidence points to the first deportees being murdered and buried, and later, dug up and cremated (and that is the sequence of events) but there's no evidence of these initial mass graves then the evidence that the deportees were initially buried must be flawed.

The false dilemma is in your 'if... then'. Your 'if... then' is a deduction, not an inference. You have presented no evidence offering any alternative explanation for the fate of the victims. The absence of such evidence ought to prompt you to revisit your original deduction and see whether you aren't in fact grossly mistaken.

The false dilemma was established by the poster to whom I was responding.

Which you obviously are, since your 'if... then' is also premised on a strawman, which has already been disposed of - namely that the bodies of the victims were all buried at the camps and should have been found there.

The sum total of evidence indicates that the victims were cremated, and that these cremations were ongoing for at least some of the victims from a fairly early stage (in the 'Lazarette' set up in all of the AR camps), and from a certain point on (varying between camps) all new victims were immediately cremated without being placed into mass graves. Therefore, not finding bodies to the tune of the number of presumed victims cannot refute the claim. Nor is determining the size of graves going to produce more than a rough guide to the number of victims, since some of them never were interred. Moreover: the sites were trashed after the Nazis left by graverobbers, resulting in disturbed crime scenes, in some cases quite seriously disturbed. As the ashes and cremains were also partially removed from the site, nor can weighing ashes or counting teeth or any other method help us determine the exact number of victims on-site.

The Treblinka story goes that the camp started murdering in July 1942 and buried the bodies. 700,000 people were murdered and buried until Feb/March of 1943. That's when Himmler stopped by the camp and ordered that the bodies be burned to destroy the evidence. Subsequent victims were immediately burned while the 700,000 corpses were simultaneously burned. It is the pits that held those 700,000 bodies that we could find today if they had ever been there.

 

[Meadmaker]

OK, give me the parameters and I'll do the math.

Your claim is that if you do the math, you can show the holocaust did not happened as claimed in the official version. In order to support that claim, you actually have to do the math.

So do the math.

 

[Meadmaker]

It should've said that the "gas chamber" was converted into an air raid shelter and then after the war was turned back into the "gas chamber." In any case Meadmaker was unaware of the changes and the deception by the Auschwitz deathcampland staff.

Dogzilla is wrong again. The gas chamber was altered, so the marks picked up by your tourist camera mean, what exactly? Nothing? Correct.

You didn't manage to spot something that the rest of the world had overlooked.

 

[Dogzilla]

Dogzilla is wrong again. The gas chamber was altered, so the marks picked up by your tourist camera mean, what exactly? Nothing? Correct.

You didn't manage to spot something that the rest of the world had overlooked.

This is what you said: "Except that everyone knows that the Germans destroyed the gas chambers as best they could before they left town and so, obviously, when you see a gas chamber at Auschwitz, you are not seeing it exactly as it was during the war. It is a reconstruction, and nobody had to "admit" to anything. It was part of the official story all along. Dogzilla thinks he is fiendishly clever to see through their deception, and that you have to get up pretty early in the moring to fool Dogzilla, but Dogzilla is wrong again."

That's where you're wrong. The "gas chamber" at Auschwitz is a reconstruction done after the war. It was (maybe still is) shown to tourists as an original gas chamber, exactly the way the Russians found it when they liberated the camp. That was the official story. The official story is now different.

The Poles now say it was a gas chamber that was turned into an air raid shelter and then turned back into a gas chamber. They used to say that it was a gas chamber all along.

In fact I do see through their deception because I know that it was never a gas chamber. Anybody who visits Auschwitz will see through the charade in two seconds unless you are blinded by woo.

 

[Meadmaker]

It was (maybe still is) shown to tourists as an original gas chamber, exactly the way the Russians found it when they liberated the camp.

Does anyone happen to know if this is true? I don't believe Dogzilla, but I would believe someone else if it could be corroborated.

My guess is that what's happening here is that the ten minute tour guide speech was dramatically oversimplified, and that deniers think they are being oh so clever that they recognize the difference between the brief explanation and the full explanation. I seriously doubt that the operators of the museum actually tried to persuade people that this was an untouched gas chamber, exactly as the Red Army found it. On the other hand, it is the Soviet Union that is under debate here, so it's not like they are above large scale lying.

 

[Meadmaker]

See the video of David Cole visiting Auschwitz to see the officials giving contradictory stories.

Oh...my...God.

Words fail me. I know that the words, "stunningly stupid" have to be included in the description of this video, but exactly how can it be put in a sentence that is accurate?

There are no contradictions. Really. Everyone in the video is saying exactly the same thing. There's no deception. There's just some moron with a microphone who desperately wants to hear something that no one is saying.

So, Dogzilla, let me clue you in, in the unlikely event you have the ability to read and comprehend. The official story, for as long as I have ever heard it, is that after the war, the room was reconstructed to show what it was like when it was used as a gas chamber. (That would be "the original state".) When they did so, they used as many original parts as they had available.

Once again, you have submitted the very evidence you need to undermine your case, but you do not even know that you have done it.

However, the video confirms what I suspected, and mentioned in my previous post. The "deceptions" are simply the difference between a quick overview versus a more lengthy description. The only thing of which I am uncertain is whether there was any time, when the Soviets ran the museum, in which anyone ever claimed differently.

I can't imagine that such a thing is possible though. The room has no door at one entrance. I'm pretty sure that the Soviets didn't try to convince anyone that, while in use as a gas chamber, there was no door.