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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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9:59 3 large fireballs emerge from the middle and east side of the south perimeter as WTC2 starts to collapse. These locations mark the center of where IB will be visible after a few more minutes. Two clips which highlight the ejections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htVnlp_qg9g&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWqdMXV6qY

NIST mentions the fire ejections briefly:

NCSTAR1-5, Page 15: "Very shortly after the collapse began, fire and smoke were pushed out of the south face of WTC 1, probably due to a pressure pulse transmitted to WTC 1 from the collapsing tower. The most prominent effect was on the 98th floor where flames were pushed out of windows along the west side of the face."

Probably? It is not hard to verify this so why guess? There is smoke coming from the south face around this region and we can see no movement due to the collapsing tower within the smoke. Any wind pulse transmitted from WTC2 to WTC1 would be visible within movement of the veil of smoke covering the south wall of WTC2.

Also, the ejections come from the center and east side as anyone can see, not the west side.

Well, that's interesting! But I hope you don't want to implicate that some overpressure due to the collapse of the 82nd floor WTC2 traveled down the tower - through the basement - up the express elevator shafts and caused darting flames in the impact zone of WTC1 in 3 seconds.
Or is it some new edition of the nonsensical "piston theory"?

I can see movement of the smoke from WTC1 moving downwards due to the collapse of WTC2 at the same time as the fireballs. Would either of you care to explain how that might happen if there are no pressure differentials being created by the collapse of WTC2.
 
It's funny how often you wrote "9 years" in the last few posts.
So much evidence for 19 terrorists did 911? Show me! Start a new threat e.g. "The passport of Abdul Aziz Al Omari" or "Attas parking lot in front of the home of the wrong Alomari" or "the transformation of a pilots suit into a wedding suit" or "the visa applications" or "Atta try to buy crop duster in US while observed by the CIA in Hamburg" or "Atta paymaster in White House on 9/11". There are hundreds of interesting names for a funny thread. Choose one! Face the 9 years of failure!


...but seemingly you are not happy about that. Is it because you still have no reality based evidence for what initiated that? ...after 9 years of babble?
So far your babble is delusional claims, backed with delusional claims. 9 year of failure, this is a fact I cam make and not be a liar like your CD idiotic fantasy.

The OOS model makes fire destroying the WTC towers even easier. Which debunks the CD claims due to the inclusion of all the reality based evidence.

You are off topic spewing more nonsense you can't control yourself after 9 years of moronic lies and failure. What will you don now as Major Tom's work on the 911 truth side debunks CD when you add reality based evidence.

Need me to repeat the reality based evidence again; the stuff you have to avoid so you can keep your idiotic failed opinions on 911? Try to get on the topic of OOS, which has noting to with your failure to understand evidence. Start your own thread for your delusions.

...
...but seemingly you are not happy about that. Is it because you still have no reality based evidence for what initiated that? ...after 9 years of babble?
Fire initiated the collapse of the towers and WTC 7. Fact. You have delusions, good luck proving delusions, it is like proving Bigfoot is real.

OOS, works against many 911 truth delusions. fact; when will it be published?
 
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I can see movement of the smoke from WTC1 moving downwards due to the collapse of WTC2 at the same time as the fireballs. Would either of you care to explain how that might happen if there are no pressure differentials being created by the collapse of WTC2.
Can you show me where and when you see it?
The first "pressure pulse" occurred about 20 sec prior to the WTC2 collapse.
The darting flame occurred while the top of WTC2 is still tilting (not falling).
Btw, the wind blew at 10m/s in exactly the direction from WTC1 to WTC2.
How fast must the top tilt to the east to cause a significant suction that affects WTC1?
 
19 terrorists did 911, there is so much evidence ... bla bla bla ... You are off topic spewing more nonsense you can't control yourself after 9 years ... bla bla bla
Sorry, you were off topic.

beachnut said:
Fire initiated the collapse of the towers and WTC 7.
May be. But at the moment that's just what you believe.
I have no idea how fire can cause the roof starting to fall at exactly G. I talk about a section of 3 x 3 core columns. I provided the evidence for that. You were unhappy about that as always.
Show me that my measurements are wrong! It is like proving Bigfoot is real, isn't it? ...and WTC7 is off topic again.
 
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So far your babble is delusional claims, backed with delusional claims.
No it's not. These are the facts backed with facts. Just to stay off topic for this moment, read the report of FBI Agent James K. Lechner sworn in the morning of 9/12.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit11.htm
Tell me (may be via PM not to delay this thread too much) how Abdul Rahman Alomari possibly could have listed Attas car as authorized to park in front of his house! I say, this is proof that the FBI faked trails of "evidence" or failed to investigate who faked these trails of evidence.
Any idea?

(Bigfoot is real. He is about to eat you and you don't know it.)
 
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Major Tom. Your going to feel stupid when you do this, but I think I've figured out how you might finally get this. Repost the photos in post 1086 that NIST used to get 8 degrees. Then measure antenna's angle from the last one.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6314465&postcount=1086

What number do you get
A. Closer to 1 degree
B. Closer to 8 degrees

Was it
A. At the same time as your measurement of 1 degree
B. A later time where as right before the smoke obscured the view.

Do we know where NIST got 8 degrees from?
A. Why yes we do.
B. I still haven't got the foggiest clue.

Then get back to me.

The point is that even in the first image all vertical columns already collapsed.
In the second image the fire from 92 was pressed out while floor 92 collapsed.
The angle in the 3rd image is about as relevant as the angle of the antenna two days later.
1-6D, pg 314:
The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south (observed at about 8°, Table 5–2) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls (see Fig. 5–8), resulting in increased gravity load on the core columns.
What exactly observed NIST at about 8°?
What increased the gravity load on the core columns?

NIST NCSTAR 1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2: "Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity."
Anyone here who wants to explain that?

Btw, are your A/B questions pretty arrogant or is it just your style?
 
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The point is that even in the first image all vertical columns already collapsed.
In the second image the fire from 92 was pressed out while floor 92 collapsed.
The angle in the 3rd image is about as relevant as the angle of the antenna two days later.

What exactly observed NIST at about 8°?

Btw, are your A/B questions pretty arrogant or is it just your style?

Not its just my style for people who have a very hard time reading or looking at photos. Major Tom seemed to be confused quite easy so I'm trying to make it as simple as possible. He wanted to know where NIST got 8 degrees.
I showed him.
 
achimspok, Major_Tom and femr2 all failed to answer these questions.
What question?
Hey, on 19 Sep 2001 the antenna had an azimuth of 3.65°!!!
What question is stupid enough not to be answered?
Did you get the point here? Obviously not.
 
Not its just my style for people who have a very hard time reading or looking at photos. Major Tom seemed to be confused quite easy so I'm trying to make it as simple as possible. He wanted to know where NIST got 8 degrees.
I showed him.
OK, we knew where they got it. And we knew that it is ZERO relevant to the entire collapse. It's that obvious that even NIST knew that mentioning 8° is faulty on purpose.
 
What question?
Hey, on 19 Sep 2001 the antenna had an azimuth of 3.65°!!!
These questionS. Why the exclamation marks?

Kent1 said:
Repost the photos in post 1086 that NIST used to get 8 degrees. Then measure antenna's angle from the last one.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=1086

What number do you get
A. Closer to 1 degree
B. Closer to 8 degrees

Was it
A. At the same time as your measurement of 1 degree
B. A later time where as right before the smoke obscured the view.

Do we know where NIST got 8 degrees from?
A. Why yes we do.
B. I still haven't got the foggiest clue.
 
These questionS. Why the exclamation marks?
Oh, thanks for showing me a typo. Believe me, my German is better.

Why the exclamation marks?
To remind you without saying it explicitly how stupid these questionS are.
There is no use of the answers. NIST took any photograph and measured something. Coincidentally it was the antenna in midair after falling for 3 seconds. LOL How many degrees exactly?

Shouldn't we use a little sinus and tangents to calculate the perspective distortion of that angle? :confused:
 
Carlito, can you answer please the following question!
How relates the third image ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6314465&postcount=1086
...to the following sentence:
"Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity." (NIST NCSTAR 1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2)

The 3rd image shows
A) the building sections seconds after it began to fall vertically under gravity.
B) the building section at the moment it began to fall vertically under gravity.

The 2nd image shows
A) the building sections seconds after it began to fall vertically under gravity.
B) the building section at the moment it began to fall vertically under gravity.

The 1st image shows
A) the building sections after it began to fall vertically under gravity.
B) the building section at the moment it began to fall vertically under gravity.

What is the measurable angle of the first image?
A) Is it closer to 8° or
B) is it closer to 1°?

Then get back to me!
 
What question?
Hey, on 19 Sep 2001 the antenna had an azimuth of 3.65°!!!
What question is stupid enough not to be answered?
Did you get the point here? Obviously not.

Given that any angle is an indication that the building's centre of gravity is falling and that, according to OOS collapse theory, the building will collapse naturally what do you think the measurement of any angle indicates?

Does this line of inquiry have a purpose? Is there a theory you have where the angle is significant evidence in favour of that theory?
 
Every one of those images shows the building well after the NW corner had already failed and anyone who has studied the video in detai would know that with just a quick look. The number 8 degrees has no meaning at all when referring to the WTC1 collapse initiation sequence of column failures. So when the NIST states...

NIST NCSTAR 1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2: "Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity."

It is wrong and misleading. A truer statement should read:

"Rotation of less than 1 degree to the south occurred before the building section began to fall vertically under gravity."

Removed breach. Please see Rule 12 and abide by it.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL


...............................................
Reactor drone, proper modelling of the collapse initiation sequence is vital to understand whether we have been attacking and murdering the right people for the last 8 years.

According to the current data, it looks like our societies have been engaged in morally repulsive acts.
 
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Given that any angle is an indication that the building's centre of gravity is falling
No, it is an indication that a part of the building (and therefore the center of mass) is sagging. It doesn't mean total collapse is inevitable.
and that, according to OOS collapse theory, the building will collapse naturally
Once the mass of huge parts of the OOS is released the building will collapse "naturally". Imo it's legitimate to ask what happened before. Simple "knowledge" that enough of heat and enough of time and enough of airplane damage possibly and probably would have such effect is not enough.
I'm sure you would investigate the murder of a cancer patient. It's not enough to know that he would have died anyway.
I know, you will protest on that. You probably will say that the buildings collapsed exactly in the expected way. And I will say, no.
NIST tried a lot from pancaking to inward bowing to find any reasonable explanation. Pancaking was wrong. And the inward bowing theory is wrong as well.
So what pulled the exterior columns inward? The weight of noodled floor slaps 20 min after the fire started in a bowed area? Hard to believe but may be we will arrive there with evidence.
So far is was a good idea to split the overall process into observable stages and to find processes to explain the observable. If those processes are "natural" then fine. No problem about that.
It's a little strange that a whole bunch of individuals react like losing their mind about any question that aims to "what is visible" instead of "we already know because we read the report". This is more the behavior of a witch-hunt than any serious effort to learn or share or even defend knowledge. Imho that's the most suspicious part of it.
what do you think the measurement of any angle indicates?
It depends on when and where you measure the angle and of course how big that angle really is.

Example:
After the impact the building had to sag in the north just some inches until the loads are redistributed mostly via the spandrels to their neighbors. The resulting angle indicates a new stage of stability and not the inevitable total collapse.
It also indicates that the center of mass slightly leans towards north and towards the most damage. What ever happens next may or may not initiate a collapse but of course it would be much easier to force a collapse in a hundred different ways.
Given the death of 3000 people, is it legitimate to clear that up? ...especially if the "official explanation" lacks of some plausibility?

It seems that no one here has any real problem with the OOS theory. It's a "natural" process. It works. Any applause? Something like "Bravo stupid twoofer!" No. Loads of shouting and even naked HATE. Why? Probably because it focuses the questions on the very moment of initiation.

Does this line of inquiry have a purpose?
Yes, exactly that. "The good ones go into the pot, the bad ones go into your crop" no matter what the stepmom always said.

Is there a theory you have where the angle is significant evidence in favour of that theory?
No, at least not now. First it was important to know what we really see instead of having a theory what all that means.
Of course the angle is important. It's a difference if the angle reaches a point where a previously cold and straight column will exceed it's capabilities. It's a difference if only the antenna is leaning without any movement of the perimeter. It's important to know if the perimeter collapsed "straight down" due to excessive loads or if these exterior columns buckled due to tilting of the top.
We did a lot of measurements and everything points at the core collapsed first (all 3 towers) and took the perimeter down. So it seems that not the perimeter collapse redistributed extreme loads to the core as described by NIST but vice versa that the core redistributed extreme loads to the perimeter.
How? Oh, that question is not allowed here. How strong was the outrigger system to redistribute perimeter loads to the core for a virtually simultaneous collapse and a virtually simultaneous tilting? That's what the NIST theory requires, right? ...a very very strong outrigger system that redistributes the loads to the core. Otherwise it would probably look like a sequential collapse, parts of the perimeter, OOS, convex deformation of the hat truss, kinking of the unsupported core columns and so on.
Imo it lacks of a theory that describes what really happened to all 3 towers. And that's the point.

Is the OOS theory accepted? Can we move on? Or depends the acceptance on "where will it lead"?
 
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Well, that's interesting! But I hope you don't want to implicate that some overpressure due to the collapse of the 82nd floor WTC2 traveled down the tower - through the basement - up the express elevator shafts and caused darting flames in the impact zone of WTC1 in 3 seconds.
Or is it some new edition of the nonsensical "piston theory"?
3 seconds? That's near speed-of-sound propagation time.

What exactly observed NIST at about 8°?
What increased the gravity load on the core columns?


Anyone here who wants to explain that?
I threw a guess in post #1132 which I recommended. The only structural engineer I've seen who has made use of NIST's 8° in a paper is Bazant, and he interprets them as being the tilt after 5 seconds of drop.

Btw, are your A/B questions pretty arrogant or is it just your style?
I'd say they're a result of misunderstanding after misunderstanding on MT's part especially.

(Edited to add the underlined chunk.)
 
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I'll say it again: until this debate migrates to the halls of academia, respected engineering and scientific journals, and the courtrooms, I remain singularly unimpressed with all this bluster by truthers on obscure internet sites and forums.

Convince somebody respected in his field who can DO something about it, truthers, or STFU
 
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Pgimeno, post 1198: "The only structural engineer I've seen who has made use of NIST's 8° in a paper is Bazant, and he interprets them as being the tilt after 5 seconds of drop."

Didn't R Mackey use it in his hardfire debate with T Szamboti? Where did R Mackey get such a crazy idea? (By reading the NIST reports.)

Achimspok, post 1197: " It seems that no one here has any real problem with the OOS theory. It's a "natural" process. It works. Any applause? Something like "Bravo stupid twoofer!" No. Loads of shouting and even naked HATE. Why? Probably because it focuses the questions on the very moment of initiation."

And that is the intention, to focus on initiation. This is why I released the propagation model before the initiation model.

An initiation model will list about 20 independent attributes of the WTC1 collapse initiation process and sequence them correctly. I will be using the work of those who in my opinion are the best independent researchers, grouping their observations into a synchronized list, a model.

I have already shown a few of these attributes, like the one seen below:

femrnew.gif

The row of forceful ejections emerge before any traced point on the perimeter or antenna are released and line up with the core. The only way to explain these ejections naturally is through slab movement, but how is that possible in the NIST scenario?

A second attribute is being discussed (ignored) in the femr data analysis thread. There is a pull-in movement happening along the NW corner from fl 98 to the roofline over a period of 9.5 seconds before visible initiation. The entire antenna is also moving eastward and downward at the same time.

Together, just these 2 attributes of the initiation sequence tell us an entirely different process is happening than the one described by the NIST.

As we assemble a complete list of attributes we will form the first accurate model of the WTC1 initiation process in the public domain. The NIST missed these and many other important attributes.
 
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