single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[Fourbrick]

So apart from witnesses, what proof do you have that Oswald killed J.F.
K.?

 

[TraneWreck]

So apart from witnesses, what proof do you have that Oswald killed J.F.
K.?

You mean other than the bullets recovered from the bodies matching the gun Oswald ordered with the scope he bought attached, as well as the fact that it had his palm print on it?

 

[Soily]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=374706







http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/637657ce54aca476




As for the duplicate serial number in the gun seller's records, if you'd ever worked in any kind of business you would know that clerks misread, miswrite, and mistype numbers all the time. Considering that no one has ever produced credible evidence of any Carcanos with duplicate serial numbers, the most likely explanation is that someone miscopied another weapon's number.

Although it is intended to somehow give the impression the ammunition boxes were found at the Paine's, they weren't. They were found in a gravel pit in Irvine sometime later. They were unrelated to the assassination, I don't think even Bugliosi has argued otherwise. The 'Oswald' bullets were not Italian 6.5 ammo, it was Western Cartridge Company ammo.

1. The WCC ammo came in 20-round cardboard boxes which were similar in size and composition to the standard issue Italian Ammo boxes.

However:

A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.
B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)

C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.
D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.
E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13304&st=0

If the reference checks out about Lattimer I will happily concede the point. Kleins certainly did have 2 MC's with the Oswald serial number, they bought a batch with it on in 1962 and an entirely separate batch in 1963. If you're arguing that it just happens to be an error on the most important rifle of all time then fine, but you can't have it both ways and say the number is unique.

The whole rifle story, which LNs like to think off as their strongest suit, falls apart with even the most cursory examination. The main problem is of course the rifle ordered, purchased and shipped to Oswald was an entirely different rifle to the one found in the TSBD. Oswald ordered a 36 inch rifle, the TSBD rifle was 40 inches long. And there's a whole list of reasons in the links below that show this wasn't yet another in the seemingly endless list of mistakes the LNs rely on. You also have to accept a whole range of postal regulations and procedures were broken in order to buy it. The Postal inspector in 1963 was FBI informant and good ol boy Harry Holmes, the only man to witness the assassination through binoculars and amazingly, actually in on the interrogation of Oswald. Think about it a postman interrogating the assassin of the President. According to the review of Bulgiosis book, Holmes was the one that alerted James Hosty to the fact Oswald was getting subversive fair play for Cuba material through the mail. And yet were asked to believe than on his watch he'd let Oswald order guns through his post office and flout postal regulations in doing so? And worse of all Oswald would chose such a risky method that left such an obvious paper trail when he could have bought a virtually untraceable gun for cash in any gunshop in texas.

Good article summarizing this here http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html

That picture from Police Chief Jesse Curry's book, the bag is actually touching the blanket for god sake. This one picture alone and you've lost half your supposed evidence.

(And by the way, number 3 is labeled fragment of bullet taken from Government Connolley's arm. Wooah look at the size of it, that's meant to come from CE399! http://www.ctka.net/besmirch.html)

 

[carlitos]

The whole rifle story, which LNs like to think off as their strongest suit, falls apart with even the most cursory examination. The main problem is of course the rifle ordered, purchased and shipped to Oswald was an entirely different rifle to the one found in the TSBD. Oswald ordered a 36 inch rifle, the TSBD rifle was 40 inches long. And there's a whole list of reasons in the links below that show this wasn't yet another in the seemingly endless list of mistakes the LNs rely on. You also have to accept a whole range of postal regulations and procedures were broken in order to buy it.

I do? Will you be listing them here? Here's a website where you can buy guns by mail today. http://dallasguns.com/

The Postal inspector in 1963 was FBI informant and good ol boy Harry Holmes, the only man to witness the assassination through binoculars and amazingly, actually in on the interrogation of Oswald. Think about it a postman interrogating the assassin of the President. According to the review of Bulgiosis book, Holmes was the one that alerted James Hosty to the fact Oswald was getting subversive fair play for Cuba material through the mail. And yet were asked to believe than on his watch he'd let Oswald order guns through his post office and flout postal regulations in doing so? And worse of all Oswald would chose such a risky method that left such an obvious paper trail when he could have bought a virtually untraceable gun for cash in any gunshop in texas.

What regulations were flouted?

That picture from Police Chief Jesse Curry's book, the bag is actually touching the blanket for god sake. This one picture alone and you've lost half your supposed evidence.

A picture of the evidence somehow "loses" half the evidence? What is magical about a bag touching a blanket?

 

[Fourbrick]

You mean other than the bullets recovered from the bodies matching the gun Oswald ordered with the scope he bought attached, as well as the fact that it had his palm print on it?

You mean the Magic bullet and gun that Oswald was supposed to have bought, which didn't match the gun found in the Depository?


Incidentally, according to the first two Police officers who found the rifle in the Depository, it was a Mauser. But then I forgot, you don't believe eye witnesses, even Police.

The whole case is as full of holes as a Gruyere Cheese.

 

[Soily]

I do? Will you be listing them here? Here's a website where you can buy guns by mail today. http://dallasguns.com/
What regulations were flouted?

A picture of the evidence somehow "loses" half the evidence? What is magical about a bag touching a blanket?

Are you kidding? The LNs like macadam and bugliosi trumpet the blanket fibbers found on the bag and gun, and here we have not only the evidence been stored together, but it's laid out on the floor with the bag actually touching the blanket! If they're that incompetent you've basically lost all your fibber evidence already, it'd be laughed out of court.

 

[RoboTimbo]

You mean the Magic bullet and gun that Oswald was supposed to have bought, which didn't match the gun found in the Depository?

It was Oswald's gun, which has been 100% absolutely nailed down. If you are going to blatantly ignore reality to that extent, you better get permission from the other CT's first.

Incidentally, according to the first two Police officers who found the rifle in the Depository, it was a Mauser. But then I forgot, you don't believe eye witnesses, even Police.

That's because it looks like, guess what? That's right! A Mauser! Good job, gold star for you for the day!

The whole case is as full of holes as a Gruyere Cheese.

So quit defending it then.

 

[EventHorizon]

That's because it looks like, guess what? That's right! A Mauser! Good job, gold star for you for the day!

I love how in CT World nobody can ever make a mistake.

Here is a Mauser:

And here is a Mannlicher Carcano:

Gee, I can't see how those 2 could have been confused at all.

 

[TraneWreck]

You mean the Magic bullet and gun that Oswald was supposed to have bought, which didn't match the gun found in the Depository?

This is just false. The bullet taken from Connally's gurney was matched to Oswald's gun.

Incidentally, according to the first two Police officers who found the rifle in the Depository, it was a Mauser. But then I forgot, you don't believe eye witnesses, even Police.

The whole case is as full of holes as a Gruyere Cheese.

Thank you for providing a wonderful example of why eyewitnesses should be ignored.

In the Warren Commission, one of the officers on the scene, Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, admitted that he didn't know much about the differences between the two riffles at the time.

If your case exclusively relies on eyewitnesses, it's not much of a case.

 

[carlitos]

Are you kidding? The LNs like macadam and bugliosi trumpet the blanket fibbers found on the bag and gun, and here we have not only the evidence been stored together, but it's laid out on the floor with the bag actually touching the blanket! If they're that incompetent you've basically lost all your fibber evidence already, it'd be laughed out of court.

No, I wasn't kidding. What postal regulations were flouted?

The "fibber" thing is unintentionally funny, though. Just like this:

 

[Soily]

This is just false. The bullet taken from Connally's gurney was matched to Oswald's rifle

Big fail.

Please show your working, because there is precisely 0 reason to believe that.

 

[TraneWreck]

Big fail.

Please show your working, because there is precisely 0 reason to believe that.

Done and done.

It was the unanimous opinion of the experts that the nearly whole bullet, the two largest bullet fragments, and the three cartridge casings were definitely fired in the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0052a.htm

 

[RoboTimbo]

Here's a Mauser 98 K:

 

[pgwenthold]

I love how in CT World nobody can ever make a mistake.

Here is a Mauser:

[qimg]http://www.micksguns.com/images/rug%2022250%201.jpg[/qimg]

And here is a Mannlicher Carcano:

[qimg]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a115/Jay_G/MannlicherCarcano.jpg[/qimg]

Gee, I can't see how those 2 could have been confused at all.

What do you mean? The Mauser is like 1 1/2 times longer than the MC!

 

[Soily]

No, I wasn't kidding. What postal regulations were flouted?

The "fibber" thing is unintentionally funny, though. Just like this:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_334674c9906440e0c6.jpg[/qimg]

Like a lot of the evidence, those fibers certainly were fibbing!

Oswald's post office box was taken out in his name, but the rifle ordered under an alias. Under post office regulations Oswald could not have received the rifle, it would have been sent back return to sender

Good summary of the rest of the postal problems here http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/11/who-bought-guns.html

 

[Soily]

Done and done.



http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0052a.htm

No, here's no evidence that CE399 was ever found at parkland on a gurney or otherwise. Please post it if you have it.

 

[TraneWreck]

Like a lot of the evidence, those fibers certainly were fibbing!

Oswald's post office box was taken out in his name, but the rifle ordered under an alias. Under post office regulations Oswald could not have received the rifle, it would have been sent back return to sender
[qimg]http://i39.tinypic.com/2w7fleh.jpg[/qimg]

Good summary of the rest of the postal problems here http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/11/who-bought-guns.html

These little niggling points are so very, very lame.

The discussion of the order and delivery of the rifle begins on page 118 of the Warren Commission Report:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0071b.htm

On page 121 we get two explanations of why the rifle would be shipped to Oswald's box even though the package had a different name:

1) It was unknown who Oswald listed as other people with access to the box because that slip was destroyed pursuant to post office regulation when the box was closed.

2) Even if the name doesn't match with the box, a notice will be placed in the box. The person with the box takes the slip and receives the item. Often identification is not required. It's assumed the person with the slip is the person with the box.

There is nothing mysterious. Oswald used the name multiple times. THere are easy explanations. This is trying to build something out of nothing.

 

[carlitos]

Oswald's post office box was taken out in his name, but the rifle ordered under an alias. Under post office regulations Oswald could not have received the rifle, it would have been sent back return to sender

Respectfully, I am asking which postal regulations were broken. When I look for information on this topic, all I find are conspiracy sites that allude to vague "postal regulations," like you are doing (indeed this thread is the 7th link from google).

What's the specific postal regulation that says Oswald can't receive another person's mail at his address in Texas in 1963?

Where does it become axiomatic that the mail would have been "returned to sender?" I get other people's mail all the time; I'm the one who has to write "return to sender" on it.

ETA - TraneWreck makes a good point. When I go to UPS today, I rarely get asked for ID, even in 2010. Texas in the 60's seems like it might be a little more lax. Take the slip, get the package.

 

[riptowtan]

No, here's no evidence that CE399 was ever found at parkland on a gurney or otherwise. Please post it if you have it.

(Talking about Guinn's NAA)
"His most important conclusion by far, however, scientifically defeating the notion that the bullet found on Connally's stecher had been planed, was that the elemental composition and concentration of trace elements of the three bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist matched those of a second bullet (the stretcher bullet). The stretcher bullet, then, had to be the one that struck Connally, which all of the other evidence already shown."
Reclaiming History pg. 814

The whole chain of evidence argument fails because there would be no reason for the conspirators to plant a bullet. If there was someone else on the sixth floor firing Oswald's gun, why would they need to plant an extra bullet? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[TraneWreck]

No, here's no evidence that CE399 was ever found at parkland on a gurney or otherwise. Please post it if you have it.

Well, there are witnesses to the bullet, including Connally himself, but I argued that eyewitnesses should be ignored, so set that aside.

First, we have the old "when you hear hoofbeats in Kansas assume horses instead of Zebras maxim." Unless you've assumed a conspiracy, there's no other reasonable explanation of how the bullet was recovered.

But the stronger argument is that it doesn't matter. The fragments match the rifle. Three spent cartridges were found. The video evidence supports 3 bullets being shot. It's possible for one bullet to do the damage claimed by the single bullet theory...etc.

The physical evidence is 100% in support of Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone shooter.