A Qur'an Got Burnt at 9/11 Mosque Protest

[DC]

I did not know I am dealing with very ignorant people in this subject.
Anyway, here it is. [You should try your own sources as well - multiple sources]

http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/74371/51514

that was one Muslim country, where can i find the surveys for the rest of Muslim countries?

 

[WildCat]

that was one Muslim country, where can i find the surveys for the rest of Muslim countries?

This is a poll from 2002:

"Believe news reports that Arabs carried out 9/11 attacks"

% who answered "not true"

Lebanon 58%
Turkey 43%
Kuwait 89%
Indonesia 74%
Iran 59%
Pakistan 86%

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-pollresults.htm

 

[DC]

This is a poll from 2002:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-pollresults.htm

and that proves this claim?

Bottom line is that too many Muslims mind is still in the 7th century paradigm when compared to that of the West.

interesting btw, even tho in Pakistan they seem to indeed believe death is an appropriate punishment for leaving Islam, so did the fast majority clearly say, terrorism against civilians is never justified.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Pew has done a number of surveys of Pakistan and the Middle-east.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1683/pa...ca-image-poor-india-threat-support-harsh-laws

http://pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

The results show that Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe.

 

[DC]

Pew has done a number of surveys of Pakistan and the Middle-east.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1683/pa...ca-image-poor-india-threat-support-harsh-laws

http://pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

The results show that Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe.

Both are about Pakistan, and show a trend of getting more moderated, less and less support for extremist groups like AQ and Taliban.

 

[A'isha]

The results show that Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe.

No, the results show that most Muslims in Pakistan aren't very moderate (even if they don't support terrorist and extremists groups, they support a rather extreme brand of Islam). Which no one disputes.

And "Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe" is a strawman. We aren't saying "Islam is moderate". We're saying "moderate Muslims exist," especially in the US.

 

[Jono]

I got into a discussion about these issues recently with a friend of mine. Personally, I just don't see any constructive point in burning anyones holy scriptures or archaic texts of imposed divinity. Neither do I care much when anyone does it. But... muslims have burned and physically "desecrated" the NT here and there for a long time, without much ado in the media (at least not here). I even saw a repetition of the claim that no bibles have been burned by muslims, anywhere in the world, during the past nine years. I was bored and decided to look it up, turns out they have. Still, let them burn it, and let others burn the Koran, if its their own or granted copy, for that purpose.

I just can't find it in myself to feel bothered. I had a few classmates in 6th grade who burned bibles at the bicycle lot, which they had received from a visiting pastor. Geeky and pointless. Yes. Should it bother anyone to the point of litigious levels? No, and if it does then that person is not from my time or place, and should hop into a time-machine and port to his.

 

[DC]

I got into a discussion about these issues recently with a friend of mine. Personally, I just don't see any constructive point in burning anyones holy scriptures or archaic texts of imposed divinity. Neither do I care much when anyone does it. But... muslims have burned and physically "desecrated" the NT here and there for a long time, without much ado in the media (at least not here). I even saw a repetition of the claim that no bibles have been burned by muslims, anywhere in the world, during the past nine years. I was bored and decided to look it up, turns out they have. Still, let them burn it, and let others burn the Koran, if its their own or granted copy, for that purpose.

I just can't find it in myself to feel bothered. I had a few classmates in 6th grade who burned bibles at the bicycle lot, which they had received from a visiting pastor. Geeky and pointless. Yes. Should it bother anyone to the point of litigious levels? No, and if it does then that person is not from my time or place, and should hop into a time-machine and port to his.

they Burned a book of one of their Prophets?

 

[Jono]

And "Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe" is a strawman. We aren't saying "Islam is moderate". We're saying "moderate Muslims exist," especially in the US.

Hmm, yes. But there are "moderate national socialists" too.

 

[Newtons Bit]

No, the results show that most Muslims in Pakistan aren't very moderate (even if they don't support terrorist and extremists groups, they support a rather extreme brand of Islam). Which no one disputes.

Eehn, I don't find it an "extreme" brand. At least if the definition of extreme includes "uncommon", as belief/laws that apostates should be killed, homosexuals executed, etc is rather common in the Middle-east and Africa. Given that there are plenty of Hadith quotes that encourage this, it is of no surprise.

And "Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe" is a strawman. We aren't saying "Islam is moderate". We're saying "moderate Muslims exist," especially in the US.

TimF was talking about polls in the Middle-east and Pakistan specifically. I provided some and it's a bit tangent to the other discussions. And sure, Imam Rauf and plenty of Muslims in American are "moderate". But their religion cannot be defined as "moderate" until they reject or redefine the Hadith that prescribe killing apostates or homosexuals.

 

[DC]

Eehn, I don't find it an "extreme" brand. At least if the definition of extreme includes "uncommon", as belief/laws that apostates should be killed, homosexuals executed, etc is rather common in the Middle-east and Africa. Given that there are plenty of Hadith quotes that encourage this, it is of no surprise.



TimF was talking about polls in the Middle-east and Pakistan specifically. I provided some and it's a bit tangent to the other discussions. And sure, Imam Rauf and plenty of Muslims in American are "moderate". But their religion cannot be defined as "moderate" until they reject or redefine the Hadith that prescribe killing apostates or homosexuals.

Why is Rauf and co Muslims and not Muslims?

 

[Jono]

they Burned a book of one of their Prophets?

It happens every now and then, and without the concern for some shared prophetic material inherent. But to be expected, jews have burned the bible and christians have burned the torah.

 

[timf1234]

that was one Muslim country, where can i find the surveys for the rest of Muslim countries?

I showed you one country. Now you need to do your homework.
As Mr. Malcolm Galdwell's book "Outliers" explains that one become smarter/knowledgeable by spending more time on it, be it Golf (Tiger Wood), Swimming (Michal Phelps) or knowing the mind of Islamic Brain.

So, spend more time on research, learning from insiders. Not only from me but from many other insiders. Hot shot news reporter like Judith Miller of New York Times doesn't know a jack about this tsunami of stealth jihad that is shaping Western way of life, value system and the very foundation of liberal secularism.

So, spend time on this.

 

[DC]

I showed you one country. Now you need to do your homework.
As Mr. Malcolm Galdwell's book "Outliers" explains that one become smarter/knowledgeable by spending more time on it, be it Golf (Tiger Wood), Swimming (Michal Phelps) or knowing the mind of Islamic Brain.

So, spend more time on research, learning from insiders. Not only from me but from many other insiders. Hot shot news reporter like Judith Miller of New York Times doesn't know a jack about this tsunami of stealth jihad that is shaping Western way of life, value system and the very foundation of liberal secularism.

So, spend time about this.

before i get even more warnings for rule violations, i put you on ignore, and don't bother with your bigoted crap anymore. bye bye.

 

[timf1234]

Both are about Pakistan, and show a trend of getting more moderated, less and less support for extremist groups like AQ and Taliban.

Typical kind hearted, gullible Westerner.
When suicide bombing boomarang against Muslims themselves, as in Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, ONLY then they became against this tactic. Only then they became against AQ and even Taliban. But when the same suicide bombing was going on against Israel before 9/11 they justified that in the name of Islam. Yes, they used to say, Mohammad did it, Hadiths approves it, Quran call for Jihad, Islamic History has a record for it.

If tomorrow, AQ and Taliban stop killing Muslim and continue killing Westerner these brain washed Muslims will reassert Allah's directives for Jihad against the infidel. That is insight. US defense department, Home Land Security has no clue about it.

 

[johnny karate]

But their religion cannot be defined as "moderate" until they reject or redefine the Hadith that prescribe killing apostates or homosexuals.

I wholeheartedly agree that any organization expressing virulent anti-gay rhetoric should be labeled as extremist.

 

[DC]

It happens every now and then, and without the concern for some shared prophetic material inherent. But to be expected, jews have burned the bible and christians have burned the torah.

I dont know, never heard nor saw that before.

I remember a muslim in the recycling center i worked, how he saved Jesus from the shredder, made us all laugh. He took him with home, that wooden Jesus figure.
But dunno, not sure what the status of the NT itself is in the Koran

 

[A'isha]

Eehn, I don't find it an "extreme" brand. At least if the definition of extreme includes "uncommon", as belief/laws that apostates should be killed, homosexuals executed, etc is rather common in the Middle-east and Africa. Given that there are plenty of Hadith quotes that encourage this, it is of no surprise.

The definition of what is "extremist" Islam isn't defined by how common it is, but by comparing it to standard Western values.

TimF was talking about polls in the Middle-east and Pakistan specifically. I provided some and it's a bit tangent to the other discussions.

Then you shouldn't have said "Islam isn't as moderate as people in the West have been led to believe," if you were just talking about Islam as practiced in Pakistan. Especially since "people in the West" sure as hell don't think the Islam of most of Pakistan is in any way "moderate".

And sure, Imam Rauf and plenty of Muslims in American are "moderate". But their religion cannot be defined as "moderate" until they reject or redefine the Hadith that prescribe killing apostates or homosexuals.

They don't determine what "their religion" is defined as any more than the extremists do. That's the point.

But in any case, while the Pew survey I linked doesn't say anything about apostasy, it does say that over a quarter of all American Muslims think homosexuality should be accepted. Not just "not-killed", but accepted. The rest think it should be "discouraged", but the survey apparently never asked what form that "discouragement" should take and whether it included the death penalty.

One in four is still a pretty significant chunk, especially since the "discouraged" would include those Muslims who don't think homosexuality should be accepted but also don't think homosexuals should be killed.

The more that 27% is encouraged and talked about, the more likely it is that the rest of the American Muslim community will change their attitudes.

EDIT: For comparison purposes, 27% is also the number of American Christians labeling themselves as "born again" that think homosexuality is acceptable. Only 2% of American Christians labeling themselves as evangelicals thought it was acceptable (among American Muslims labeling themselves as having a "high" religious commitment, 16% think homosexuality is acceptable).

 

[nchammer326]

I showed you one country. Now you need to do your homework.

That's not how it works. The burden of proof lies on your end.

Either provide evidence to support your claims, or leave. We're not going to do your work for you.

 

[johnny karate]

One in four is still a pretty significant chunk, especially since the "discouraged" would include those Muslims who don't think homosexuality should be accepted but also don't think homosexuals should be killed.

The more that 27% is encouraged and talked about, the more likely it is that the rest of the American Muslim community will change their attitudes.

To put that number into perspective, they are just barely edged out by Conservatives.