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single bullet theory is not true says Soily

Do you think Oswald could have carried such a large bag without it been quite conspicuous? Would your rifle leave any marks in the bag if it'd rattled about on the backseat of a car for 5 miles? The WC said the rifle was well oiled.

Sure, no problem unless for some reason people never carried large bags near or in the TSBD. That bag looks well wrinkled, like it held a lumpy object with abrupt edges, like a firearm.

Well oiled. This has got to be one of the most misunderstood terms after "pristine bullet". Most rifles like the Carcano only need a small amount of lubricant on the internals, and none on the outside, especially those with fixed sights. Lubing a rifle is not the same as getting your body lubed at a massage parlor.

carcanoaction.jpg


Here is my carcano rifle. It is nearly the same as Oswald's. Only the mount, scope and lack of sling are different. A points to grease inside the bolt to prevent the firing pin from freezing up. B and C is where I put up to one drop of gun oil on the interior to ensure the bolt operates slick and fast. Nowhere on the exterior of the rifle is any oil or other lubrication needed. A well oiled Carcano simply does not need to have any oil on the exterior which could leave a spot on a paper bag.

Well oiled is the only term I have ever read regarding how well it was lubricated. No one examining the rifle has ever said there was oil on the exterior surfaces as far as I know.

Ranb
 
Here is a picture of my 5'9" self holding my bagged carcano. It is easy to carry. I made the bag from an old shopping bag and masking tape. It does not look like I am holding a rifle, but then it does not exactly look like curtain rods either. If I was to wrap the rifle in a T-shirt then put it in the bag, it would look even less conspicuous.

holdingcarcano.jpg


Ranb
 
No, the whole Specter theory was concocted on the basis of fraudulently moving the back wound up by 6 inches - http://i47.tinypic.com/fpbkt4.jpg and lying about the position of Kennedy. Indeed the autopsy didn't even bother to find out of the back and neck wound were linked, instead suggesting that the back wound was shallow. Later 3d cartoon recreations acknowledge this lie and turn kennedy into a hunchback tieing his shoelaces in order to ram the facts into the theory.
Source?

The ballistics test were done by the WCs expert, I posted a link early to an interview with him. Wecht goes through it with the test bullets here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7482146129368381942 And even if the tests were not 100% accurate as some on here have claimed the argument that that highly dubious bullet did those wounds its still completely and utterly ridiculous on every level.
Argument from personal incredulity. Experiments say otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk

Wow, incredible amount of conjecture. Why can't they just admit they haven't got a clue? Also doesn't explain why Oswald didn't just shoot Kennedy when he was right in front of him before the turn. Also doesn't explain why the FBI, who actually did the investigation for the Warren commission, had a different shooting pattern with no missed shots. Doesn't explain how, even amongst the WC supporters, they have a million and 1 completely different scenarios for the shot pattern. Or how most of the witnesses have two of the shots right on top of each other. The SBT is an act of faith, because in truth nobody has got a bloody clue what the shooting pattern was beyond the fatal headshot.

What million scenarios are you talking about? It's only the conspiracy theorists that are confused about the sequence of shots because they keep probing everything for anomalies, ignoring all of the very clear evidence that Oswald did it. Bugliosi's chapter on "Oswald's guilt" shows without a shadow of a doubt that Oswald brought the rifle in and fired three shots at JFK.
 
Why did you try to lead people to believe that there was no bag at all earlier?

No, the WC did not come to the conclusion that it was made with the same materials at the TSBD. You really should research some of the things you say rather than making them up on the spot.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

From the WC report:
However, the complete identity of characteristics between the paper and tape in the bag found on the sixth floor and the paper and tape found in the shipping room of the Depository on November 22 enabled the Commission to conclude that the bag was made from these materials
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#scientific
 
Here is a picture of my 5'9" self holding my bagged carcano. It is easy to carry. I made the bag from an old shopping bag and masking tape. It does not look like I am holding a rifle, but then it does not exactly look like curtain rods either. If I was to wrap the rifle in a T-shirt then put it in the bag, it would look even less conspicuous.

[qimg]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/holdingcarcano.jpg[/qimg]

Ranb
Interesting. How long is that package? Oswalds was at least 35 inches long.

Here's a video of Wesley Buell Frazier describing how Oswald held the package he saw, which is not how you are carrying yours, but cupped under his hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWaOjFqgHk
 
Source?
Argument from personal incredulity. Experiments say otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk
Hahaha! You're actually serious aren't you? Do you even bother to look at what these snake oil salesman tell you? The bullet in that decidedly unscientific test exits in Kennedy's chest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgec6oCdIvE&feature=related

Myers is the ultimate deciever, constantly shifting the wounds and the positions of the bodies in order to make the magic shot fit.
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c:animania

Pure pseduo-science, if you choose to believe it then its an act of faith.
 
The magic bullet supporters say that Connolly was sitting well inboard of JFK

Look at the youtube recommended by Riptowan

"Argument from personal incredulity. Experiments say otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk"

At frames 28 to 33 they are both in line rather than offset. JFK appears to be further to the right only because he has his arm over the side of the limo.
 
The magic bullet supporters say that Connolly was sitting well inboard of JFK

Look at the youtube recommended by Riptowan

"Argument from personal incredulity. Experiments say otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk"

At frames 28 to 33 they are both in line rather than offset. JFK appears to be further to the right only because he has his arm over the side of the limo.

And the bullet exits in the chest, much lower than the wound in Kennedy's neck alleged to be the exit wound.

And as Speer points out, for a simulation purporting to be measuring events with scientific accuracy, Myers either accidentally or deliberately gets the position of Connolly's jump seat 3 and a half inches out. Which when you are extrapolating lines outwards for 250 feet, is a chasm. There are so many problems with it just generally, as well as specifically. The actual event it purports to show is never visible in the Zapruder film, they are behind the Stemmons freeway sign. It's impossible to see exactly where either men is in 3d space at any point in the Zapruder film, its too blurry and low res. Extrapolating where they are from other films and photographs has similar problems, especially when the men are twisting and moving about in their seats to greet the crowds. Speer also shows quite clearly the sneak games Myers plays with the relative size of the men and their body shapes. What Myers does is shift and twist one of dozens of measurements in order to fit the facts to the theory. And even then, their own simulations don't show what they say they do.

Pseudo-science for the gullible.
 

I accept your correction and applaud your use of the WC report. Here is what they concluded about the bag:
Conclusion

The preponderance of the evidence supports the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald (1) told the curtain rod story to Frazier to explain both the return to Irving on a Thursday and the obvious bulk of the package which he intended to bring to work the next day; (2) took paper and tape from the wrapping bench of the Depository and fashioned a bag large enough to carry the disassembled rifle; (3) removed the rifle from the blanket in the Paines' garage on Thursday evening; (4) carried the rifle into the Depository Building, concealed in the bag; and, (5) left the bag alongside the window from which the shots were fired.
Thank you for validating the WC report. Now, why did you dishonestly try to mislead people that there was no bag at all earlier?
 
I accept your correction and applaud your use of the WC report. Here is what they concluded about the bag:

Thank you for validating the WC report. Now, why did you dishonestly try to mislead people that there was no bag at all earlier?

Wow shifty!

You said:
No, the WC did not come to the conclusion that it was made with the same materials at the TSBD. You really should research some of the things you say rather than making them up on the spot.

And accused me of making things up.

When the reality is you made it up, because the WC did say that:

However, the complete identity of characteristics between the paper and tape in the bag found on the sixth floor and the paper and tape found in the shipping room of the Depository on November 22 enabled the Commission to conclude that the bag was made from these materials


I never said there was no bag. I asked the question as to how Oswald could have carried such an enormous bag into work that day without it been incredibly conspicuous. Yet the 4 known witnesses either didn't see it at all, or were absolutely adamant it was a much smaller bag.
 
Hahaha! You're actually serious aren't you? Do you even bother to look at what these snake oil salesman tell you? The bullet in that decidedly unscientific test exits in Kennedy's chest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgec6oCdIvE&feature=related

Myers is the ultimate deciever, constantly shifting the wounds and the positions of the bodies in order to make the magic shot fit.
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c:animania

Pure pseduo-science, if you choose to believe it then its an act of faith.

Of course. Anything experiment that falsifies your belief you call pseudoscience. Can you tell us a test that would falsify your belief if anything? The video I sent was in response to your claim that the bullet couldn't do all that damage. Since the experiment clearly showed it could you have widened the goalposts to attack the trajectory of the bullet. (A completely different claim). Your whining about how it exited the chest of JFK is a moot point, because the experiment is not going to replicate the shot exactly. It was an inch or two off, but showed that a similar trajectory and bullet wounds are indeed possible for a gunman in the 6th floor of the Book Depository. And have you considered that Pat Speer may be the snake oil salesman here? What are his credentials, and where are his calculations to show that the single bullet theory is wrong. Why hasn't he done any computer models, or even a diagram of the proper seating arrangements? Show me some science, you have had 44 years to come up with ONE piece of positive evidence and are still in the anomaly hunting phase. I can give you 53 pieces of evidence that Oswald did it. Sure you can point out small inconsistencies with eyewitnesses, and discrepancies in reports, but that is all irrelevant to the big picture. Here are 5 pieces of hard evidence connected Oswald to the assassination.(Remember there are 48 more!) We know that Oswald's gun was found on the sixth floor, with eyewitnesses on the floor below who heard the shots above including that shells hitting the ground. We have multiple witnesses who saw Oswald in the window with his rifle thinking it was a secret serviceman. All of the bullets found were fired from Oswald's gun to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, and Oswald's fingerprints and palm prints are all over the sixth floor.(Bag, Gun, Boxes, Clipboard) In addition to all of this, we know Oswald left his wedding ring and practically all of his money out for his wife that morning.(Only time) When the assassination took place, Oswald fleed from the scene, went home and picked up his revolver, killed a police officer and then hid in a movie theater. That sounds just like what I would do if I was innocent...
 
Yes, you did. Here's the title of the article you linked to in that post:

The Paper Bag that Never Was
by Ian Griggs


If you click the link to the article, you can see for yourself what you were linking to. You really, really need to read what you're posting.

Hang on, lets not conflate two different issues here. You accused me of making stuff about about what the WC said about the materials used to make the paper bag. In fact, you were dead wrong, and have been furiously shifting the goalposts to try and avoid this!

I posted Ian Grigg's article because it excellently exposes just how problematic and hard to believe the official paper bag story is. I don't necessarily have to wholeheartedly and 100% agree with his conclusions to recognize the valuable points he makes.

I suspect the DPD took some unconnected paper or a paper bag from the TSDB (a place, lest we forget, where books were wrapped in paper and tape every day) and needed to shore up their then shaky case against Oswald (remember on the night of the 22nd, they had found no prints of Oswald's on the rifle, the parafin test had come back negative, Marion Baker had cast doubt on whether he could have been on the 6th floor at all, - from their point of view they may have privately felt they had little or nothing to connect Oswald with the rifle on the day of the 22nd). They needed that bag, the perfect way to directly connect Oswald and the rifle on the 22nd. I think its a plausible possibilty that Oswald's own words on this were for once true. Remember the curtain rods story did not come from Oswald himself, during his interrogation he actually said he had brought his lunch in with him. Some witnesses saw Oswald eating his lunch that day and if this is correct, its never adequetly been explained where this lunch came from, if he hadn't as he said brought it in himself.
 
Hang on, lets not conflate two different issues here. You accused me of making stuff about about what the WC said about the materials used to make the paper bag. In fact, you were dead wrong, and have been furiously shifting the goalposts to try and avoid this!
Yes, let's not. I asked why you tried to mislead people into believing there was no bag at all earlier. You posted a picture where the bag had been removed and linked to an article claiming there was no bag. I admitted I was incorrect in saying the WC had not said the bag was made with materials from the TSBD. I'm not sure how you get goal post shifting out of that.

I posted Ian Grigg's article because it excellently exposes just how problematic and hard to believe the official paper bag story is. I don't necessarily have to wholeheartedly and 100% agree with his conclusions to recognize the valuable points he makes.
Your posting of that article exposes how CTers can't get their stories straight. You posted a link to an article whose title is "The Bag That Never Was" and then say that you aren't trying to say there was no bag. You've got your goalposts on a rocket sled.

I suspect the DPD took some unconnected paper or a paper bag from the TSDB (a place, lest we forget, where books were wrapped in paper and tape every day) and needed to shore up their then shaky case against Oswald (remember on the night of the 22nd, they had found no prints of Oswald's on the rifle, the parafin test had come back negative, Marion Baker had cast doubt on whether he could have been on the 6th floor at all, - from their point of view they may have privately felt they had little or nothing to connect Oswald with the rifle on the day of the 22nd). They needed that bag, the perfect way to directly connect Oswald and the rifle on the 22nd. I think its a plausible possibilty that Oswald's own words on this were for once true. Remember the curtain rods story did not come from Oswald himself, during his interrogation he actually said he had brought his lunch in with him. Some witnesses saw Oswald eating his lunch that day and if this is correct, its never adequetly been explained where this lunch came from, if he hadn't as he said brought it in himself.
What was Oswald carrying into the TSBD in the long bag, Soily?
 
Yes, let's not. *I asked why you tried to mislead people into believing there was no bag at all earlier. *You posted a picture where the bag had been removed and linked to an article claiming there was no bag. *I admitted I was incorrect in saying the WC had not said the bag was made with materials from the TSBD. *I'm not sure how you get goal post shifting out of that.
If by admit you were wrong you mean rapidly backtrack and change the subject then yeah. And it's not that you were wrong that's the problem, everyones wrong on the Internet sometimes, its that in the same breath you accuse me of lying and making stuff up!*
Your posting of that article exposes how CTers can't get their stories straight. *You posted a link to an article whose title is "The Bag That Never Was" and then say that you aren't trying to say there was no bag. *You've got your goalposts on a rocket sled.
This is an unbelievably contrived mangling of what I said. I never for a second said there was no bag at all, my position is that i'm extremely sketpical of the official story on the bag. In my opinion a credible alternative scenario would successfully square off the contrary evidence. Oswald's own story may be correct, and like he did every day he took some lunch to work with him, perhaps in an old shopping bag. Let's consider these points:

1. Of the 4 witnesses we have that day, 2 saw no bag at all and 2 glanced at what they were sure was a much smaller bag than the one alleged by the WC. 1 way to square that is that Oswald was carrying a smaller bag, 1 that could be noticed or not depending on what angle you saw Oswald from.
2. Oswald always brought his lunch in with him prior to the 22nd.
3. Oswald told his interograters he brought his lunch with him that day
4. Some witnesses saw Oswald eating his lunch that day
5. The alleged WC bag appears in none of the crime scene photos and the account of it's finding is unbelievably confused and contradictory.
6. The bag showed no signs of having contained a rifle.
7. The WC said oswald used tape and paper from the TSBD. Yet the man in charge of the paper and tape dispenser, Troy West, told them he never left his station, even for lunch. Yet Oswald never came to him for paper on any occasion. Furthermore, the tape could only be removed from the dispenser when wet, meaning the user would have to use it there in front of West.
8 Nobody ever saw Oswald with the massive piece of paper or the tape the WC said he had, not even Frazier who gave him a lift everyday.
9 Despite the extensive handling needed by Oswald to fashion this massive piece of paper into a bag, and all the handling requited to put a disassembled rifle and carry it to work, and despite at least 3 other men handling the bag after Oswald, only 1 singular identifiable fingerprint was found on it - oswald's.
10 The FBI created a second bag themselves, which the used for identification purposes (!)
11 According to authors John Armstrong, Sylvia Meagher and Anthony Summers, on the 20th of November, somebody tried to mail something addressed to Lee Oswald but at Ruth Paines address in Irving. A postage due note was left at the Paines on the 23rd, with 13 cents to pay. On december the 4th a package addressed to Lee Oswald but with the wrong address was found at the dead letter section of the Dallas post office. It had 13 cents due and contained a brown paper bag similar to the one found in the TSBD. Since the package was tossed into the dead letter pile, it's reasonable to conclude that this was posted before Lee Oswald became the most infamous man in the world. Question is, by who and why?
 
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If by admit you were wrong you mean rapidly backtrack and change the subject then yeah.
No, you're letting your emotions get the better of you. By admit I was wrong I meant that I admitted I was wrong.
And it's not that you were wrong that's the problem, everyones wrong on the Internet sometimes, its that in the same breath you accuse me of lying and making stuff up!*
You have yet to acknowledge that you were mistaken about steel jacketed bullets. You have yet to acknowledge that you were mistaken when you seemed to believe that only one type of ammo can be fired in a Mannlicher-Carcano. You have yet to acknowledge that the Myers video accurately explains the wounds. You have yet to acknowledge that the first bullet didn't "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air". You have yet to acknowledge that you erred in claiming that you had proof that the single bullet theory is incorrect. I think you get my point. I can give you a few dozen more if you like.

This is an unbelievably contrived mangling of what I said. I never for a second said there was no bag at all, my position is that i'm extremely sketpical of the official story on the bag. In my opinion a credible alternative scenario would successfully square off the contrary evidence. Oswald's own story may be correct, and like he did every day he took some lunch to work with him, perhaps in an old shopping bag. Let's consider these points:
If I had claimed to be quoting you, you might have a point. What I actually said, rather than your strawman, is that you were giving the impression that you didn't believe there was a bag at all by posting a link to a site with the name "The Bag That Never Was." I don't know how I can make it more clear to you. If you still fail to understand, get someone local to help you with it.
 
No, you're letting your emotions get the better of you. By admit I was wrong I meant that I admitted I was wrong.

You have yet to acknowledge that you were mistaken about steel jacketed bullets. You have yet to acknowledge that you were mistaken when you seemed to believe that only one type of ammo can be fired in a Mannlicher-Carcano. You have yet to acknowledge that the Myers video accurately explains the wounds. You have yet to acknowledge that the first bullet didn't "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air". You have yet to acknowledge that you erred in claiming that you had proof that the single bullet theory is incorrect. I think you get my point. I can give you a few dozen more if you like.


If I had claimed to be quoting you, you might have a point. What I actually said, rather than your strawman, is that you were giving the impression that you didn't believe there was a bag at all by posting a link to a site with the name "The Bag That Never Was." I don't know how I can make it more clear to you. If you still fail to understand, get someone local to help you with it.
Grigg's article, if you read it all, does not say there never was a bag, it alleges that the WC bag as supposedly found in the empty dotted line area did not exist at that time and was concocted later. I actually disagree with him on a few things and his conclusions don't always follow on from the text. But he's also done some great work with that article.

And I reckon this is exchange is getting circular and tedious for everyone else here so lets move on eh.
 

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