Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

...there might have been explosions.

For you to prove there were explosions means nothing in a situation where two skyscrapers collapsed.

You better explain that to Al, because he was so sure that there was "no evidence" and "no eyewitness reports" of any kind of explosive event in the basement, or any sound whatsoever of explosions.
 
Sorry to press you on this, but it is central to your assumption and assertions.

On what basis do you believe that a safety factor of 5 is required to deal with hurricanes and earthquakes? What is the basis for your assumptions regarding design life? Have you had reference to, for example, and of the design codes applicable either then or at the present time?



I'm afraid you are mistaken.

With the risk of making a complete fool of myself, wouldn't for example 100% required strength mean that if someone jumped on a floor in one of the WTC towers it would cause it to pancake?
 
Your reading comprehension still blows, no matter what your screen name happens to be. No injuries from the type of explosions you claim.

I'm not claiming any type of explosion at this point. Simply pointing out to you folks that there were indeed explosions in the basement.
 
You better explain that to Al, because he was so sure that there was "no evidence" and "no eyewitness reports" of any kind of explosive event in the basement, or any sound whatsoever of explosions.

Wasn't he referring to specific types of explosions?
 
I have heard that the general factor is 10 times the needed strength. But I don't know if it applies to buildings of all kinds. Maybe it was for bridges or something like that.

Tell you what, consider this:

NIST tested the steel recovered from WTC (which in itself is of interest, as CTers usually claim it was all whisked away to China with unseemly haste). NIST NCS STAR 1-3D (http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire05/PDF/f05158.pdf) confirms a range of actual values:

- Core webs ranged from as low as 31.1 to 41.9 ksi, ie. 86 to 116% of specificed strength.

- Core flanges ranged from 32.4 to a high 53.4 ksi, ie. 90 to 146% of specified strength.

Setting to one side the 31.1 and 32.4 ksi results, inasmuch as a small proportion of columns below failure point are unlikely to lead to any wider problem, let's take the lower maximum of 116% specified value.

Now, the NIST Demand to Capacity Ratios (DCR) are based upon specified strengths and NIST themselves note that there is effectively spare capacity up to actual (but varying) yield point/strength.

Core columns in WTC typically had a Demand to Capacity Ratio (DCR) of 0.83, ie a safety factor of 1/0.83=1.20. Now let's assume assume that the steel has an additional 16% beyond minimum yield value. This would reduce the DCR to 1.16/.83=1.4.

In other words we could increase the loads in these areas by up to 40% before yield point was reached and plastic (permanent) deformation begins. Of course this figure has lots of variables - most of the steel webs did not have such a high yield factor, some areas had DCRs well in excess of 0.83, and so on.

What we don't do is then add any significant additional allowance for tensile strength because (a) yield failure is already occuring and (b) gravity loads will be compressive, not tensile.

As I have previously mentioned elsewhere on the forums, one thing we also have to appreciate is that the structure of WTC is complex; in addition to dead and live loads, it will be dealing with (for example) transverse and shear loadings from the wind. There will be a degree of torsion due to differential loading. And so on. We would therefore have to look at the exact steelwork design in considerable detail before we could determine a safety factor for each. That's why engineers earn a lot of cash, and why complex modelling software was developed.

Nevertheless it is clear that the actual capacity of the core is not going to be anything like 500% or 5:1 before irreversible damage and failure begin to occur.

But in any event the above calculations all assume an intact core, and we know from the various NIST studies and eyewitness evidence that the cores suffered damage - around a third. This will obviously have reduced loadbearing capacity still further, and a simple pro-rata reduction of (say) 30% is likely to be wrong because the damage is concentrated in localised areas and hence these areas will be susceptible to accelerated failure under loads.

However I'm guessing you're going to hand-wave this away on the basis that someone in a pub once told you that the safety factor was ten. Perhaps.
 
bickering over semantics and phrasing is fun, why do science when you could just do that?
 
I don't think it's a "semantic" argument to make the assertion that there is no evidence nor any eyewitness reports of explosions in the basement when clearly there is and are. That's not "semantics". That's proving someone wrong.
 
I don't think it's a "semantic" argument to make the assertion that there is no evidence nor any eyewitness reports of explosions in the basement when clearly there is and are. That's not "semantics". That's proving someone wrong.

Explosions != explosives
 
I don't think it's a "semantic" argument to make the assertion that there is no evidence nor any eyewitness reports of explosions in the basement when clearly there is and are. That's not "semantics". That's proving someone wrong.

I agree with you. Now, assuming these explosions actually happened, what do you do with this information?
 
I agree with you. Now, assuming these explosions actually happened, what do you do with this information?

Nothing right now. Maybe this fact will sink in with some of you over time. Just wanted to prove my point. :)
 
Arg, I just realized this.

Al said there's no evidence of explosives, not explosions.

Oh, so he knew there were explosions, just not explosives. I see.

* cough * More "debunker" wriggling. * cough*

What kind of eyewitness account would you expect to hear if explosives were used? What they saw? What they heard? What kind of impact from it they experienced?
 
Actually, I would add, now we are getting into semantics. :)

Who was it who was complaining about "bickering over semantics" just a few moments ago? :)
 
Oh, so he knew there were explosions, just not explosives. I see.

* cough * More "debunker" wriggling. * cough*

What kind of eyewitness account would you expect to hear if explosives were used? What they saw? What they heard? What kind of impact from it they experienced?

*cough* How do you know when the eye (ear?) witness heard explosions that these actually where explosives? *cough*
 
*cough* How do you know when the eye (ear?) witness heard explosions that these actually where explosives? *cough*

I don't. Just that there were numerous accounts. Both from inside and outside, by the way. Others on the outside felt a "rumble" in the ground preceding the collapse initiation.

But I'll add, what else would crumple up a 300-pound steel and concrete fire door? Not fire, that's for sure.
 
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I don't. Just that there were numerous accounts. Both from inside and outside, by the way. Others on the outside felt a "rumble" in the ground preceding the collapse initiation.

Well that settles it, it must have been CD.
 

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