single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[riptowtan]

A key piece of evidence is hardly a tiny detail. The Warren Commission report said the fibers matched the shirt he had on when he was arrested, yet it seems highly likely he changed shirts when he got home.

And of course I don't think he brought curtain rods in with him. As I posted earlier, the whole bag story has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. It's actually laughable.

Are you saying they planted fibers from the wrong shirt? How on earth could they be that stupid? Occam's Razor should be used for this one.

So I guess Frazier's testimony is to no use here...

 

[Soily]

Perhaps that was the shirt he was wearing when he attempted to assassinate General Walker with the same rifle.

Weird that prior to the Kennedy assassantion, the police and general walker both describe a bullet of a complete different caliber to one fired from Oswalds rifle. And eye witnesses say two men were there. So Oswald may well have shot at Walker(incidentally something Walker himself did not believe), but all the evidence shows he used a different rifle and had confederates.

Here are the contemporary documents which show the bullet fired at Walker was not from the Oswald rifle http://www.whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm

 

[Soily]

Are you saying they planted fibers from the wrong shirt? How on earth could they be that stupid? Occam's Razor should be used for this one.

So I guess Frazier's testimony is to no use here...

False dilemma. The fibres could have gotten snagged when all the Oswald evidence was stored together. They don't have to have been planted. Although if they were, they were done before they knew Oswald had changed shirts.

 

[Soily]

Wait a second, what was Frazier actually saying? That the package was too small to contain an assembled rifle or a disassembled rifle? If it really was the latter, was he knowledgeable enough on the subject of rifles (the Mannlicher Carcano in particular) to accurately make that kind of assessment? Had he ever seen what that rifle looks like when disassembled? Saying the package was cupped in Oswald's hand and that it fit under his armpit seems a little vague, but assuming that he meant that the package's length was essentially the same length as Oswald's arm, is that roughly equivalent to the length of a package containing a disassembled Mannlicher Carcano rifle?

No one has ever argued this. The package had to be at least 35 inches, just over half Oswald's height. You try holding a package over half your own height without it either going right over your own head or scraping along the floor. You most certainly could not hold it how Frazier described unless your were a particularly freakish Orangutan. Nobody could see Oswald carrying such a huge package without it been the single most notable thing about him. Yet the four known witnesses either didn't see it at all or barely noticed he had a much smaller package. It's completely unbelievable, and add this to the myriad of other problems with the bag and you get a huge ugly question mark over the whole thing.

And by the way, I think Frazier knew about firearms. He had a rifle at his house, one that matched the early erroneous descriptions of the TSBD rifle. I believe he was even briefly thought to be a suspect himself.

 

[riptowtan]

False dilemma. The fibres could have gotten snagged when all the Oswald evidence was stored together. They don't have to have been planted. Although if they were, they were done before they knew Oswald had changed shirts.

So then you would say that the fibers don't necessarily prove anything? This is contrary to what you said before when you said the fibers were key piece of evidence. Your obsession with these moot points make it clear that you don't have any alternative narrative or positive evidence for your theory.

 

[riptowtan]

No one has ever argued this. The package had to be at least 35 inches, just over half Oswald's height. You try holding a package over half your own height without it either going right over your own head or scraping along the floor. You most certainly could not hold it how Frazier described unless your were a particularly freakish Orangutan. Nobody could see Oswald carrying such a huge package without it been the single most notable thing about him. Yet the four known witnesses either didn't see it at all or barely noticed he had a much smaller package. It's completely unbelievable, and add this to the myriad of other problems with the bag and you get a huge ugly question mark over the whole thing.

And by the way, I think Frazier knew about firearms. He had a rifle at his house, one that matched the early erroneous descriptions of the TSBD rifle. I believe he was even briefly thought to be a suspect himself.

His finger prints and palm print were found on the bag along with his clipboard on the sixth floor.
The below clears up all of the confusion with the bag. This covers the testimonies from the eyewitnesses you mentioned earlier.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

 

[Soily]

His finger prints and palm print were found on the bag along with his clipboard on the sixth floor.
The below clears up all of the confusion with the bag. This covers the testimonies from the eyewitnesses you mentioned earlier.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

Oh what a surprise, a link to mcadams.

Here's a more accurate account of the miasma of contradictory evidence surrounding the paper bag, from an actual police professional http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/15th_Issue/pbag1.html

And you know, no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that bag magically reappear in the crime scene photos.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Weird that prior to the Kennedy assassantion, the police and general walker both describe a bullet of a complete different caliber to one fired from Oswalds rifle. And eye witnesses say two men were there. So Oswald may well have shot at Walker(incidentally something Walker himself did not believe), but all the evidence shows he used a different rifle and had confederates.

Here are the contemporary documents which show the bullet fired at Walker was not from the Oswald rifle http://www.whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm

From a page on that website:

Specimen Q188 was fired from a barrel rifled with four lands and grooves, right twist. Mannlicher-Carcano rifles of the type used in the assassination of President Kennedy (described as specimen K1 in the Laboratory report PC-73243 EX) are among those which produce general rifling impressions such as were found on specimen Q188.

Again, I don't think this is helping you much. Here's the Warren Commission report, FBI expert testimony of Robert Frazier:

He concluded that "the general rifling characteristics of the rifle ... are of the same type as those found on the bullet ... and, further, on this basis ... the bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land and groove impressions."

So at least everyone agrees that the bullet could definitely have come from Oswald's rifle.

 

[riptowtan]

Oh what a surprise, a link to mcadams.

Here's a more accurate account of the miasma of contradictory evidence surrounding the paper bag, from an actual police professional http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/15th_Issue/pbag1.html

And you know, no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that bag magically reappear in the crime scene photos.

[qimg]http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/15th_Issue/1302.gif[/qimg]

It's all covered in Mcadam's article. The reason why the bag isn't in the crime scene photos is because two of the detectives took it with them when they left. Again, a little logic please.

"If the police officers forged a paper bag to explain how Oswald brought the rifle into the building unseen, wouldn't they have taken the time to photograph it where they were going to claim it was discovered on the sixth floor? "
"More importantly, how would they have known that Randle and Frazier were going to say they saw Oswald with a bag? They had not talked to either one yet. They were both friends with Oswald, so what motivation would they have to lie and frame him? "

"Among the six officers who did see the bag was Lieutenant J. C. Day, who not only saw it in the Depository but labeled it, "'Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day'" (4H267). Detective Robert Studebaker not only saw the bag but also dusted the bag for fingerprints while the bag was still in the depository. He also drew diagrams to show the placement of the bag (7H144-9). Both Officer Marvin Johnson and Detective L. D. Montgomery saw the bag and carried it out of the building to the station. Montgomery actually found the bag and left it so Studebaker could dust it for fingerprints (7H97-8). Detective Richard Sims, who assisted Lieutenant Day in removing the hulls, was also there when the bag was discovered (7H162). Officer E. D. Brewer was there for the discovery of every piece of evidence and hence saw the bag (6H306-8). While Montgomery and Johnson were leaving the depository with the bag, they were photographed by Jack Beers of the Dallas Morning News, William Allen of the Dallas Times-Herald and George Smith of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "

"The bag held a hard, heavy object that contained fibers matching those from the blanket the rifle was in and had Oswald's fingerprint and palmprint on it. But that's all a coincidence, right?"

 

[Soily]

From a page on that website:

Again, I don't think this is helping you much. Here's the Warren Commission report, FBI expert testimony of Robert Frazier:

So at least everyone agrees that the bullet could definitely have come from Oswald's rifle.

Sorry but it's completely irrelevant whether the bullet in the WC evidence came from Oswald's rifle. The bullet fired at Walker was a different bullet. Every single scrap of evidence we have shows that. Look at the 7 contemporary pre WC documents which show this. Even walker, who handled the bullet on the night of the failed assassination attempt was adamant it was not from the Oswald rifle. His own private investigation into the matter fingered an embittered former employee. Similar ammunition was even found on this former employees person.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Sorry but it's completely irrelevant whether the bullet in the WC evidence came from Oswald's rifle. The bullet fired at Walker was a different bullet. Every single scrap of evidence we have shows that. Look at the 7 contemporary pre WC documents which show this. Even walker, who handled the bullet on the night of the failed assassination attempt was adamant it was not from the Oswald rifle. His own private investigation into the matter fingered an embittered former employee. Similar ammunition was even found on this former employees person.

No, Walker suspected an embittered employee because he had never heard of Oswald. But Oswald had heard of him. The bullet was a 6.5 mm bullet, not .30-06 as claimed. If it had been a .30 caliber bullet, there would have been no way to tell if it had come from a .30-06, a .308, or any of a dozen other .30 caliber cartridges. That's a moot point because the bullet was 6.5 mm, same as the Mannlicher-Carcano. Someone's been feeding you a line.

 

[riptowtan]

Sorry but it's completely irrelevant whether the bullet in the WC evidence came from Oswald's rifle. The bullet fired at Walker was a different bullet. Every single scrap of evidence we have shows that. Look at the 7 contemporary pre WC documents which show this. Even walker, who handled the bullet on the night of the failed assassination attempt was adamant it was not from the Oswald rifle. His own private investigation into the matter fingered an embittered former employee. Similar ammunition was even found on this former employees person.

I know you love Mcadam's site Soily, so here's another one to read over.
In all seriousness, Mcadam's site is pretty much the only debunking website, and I think it refutes everything you brought up. We obviously disagree about that but I will reference it when a relevant issue comes up.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walker.txt

 

[riptowtan]

Based on (1) the contents of the note which
Oswald left for his wife on April 10, 1963, (2) the photographs
found among Oswald's possessions, (3) the testimony of firearms
identification experts, and (4) the testimony of Marina Oswald,
the Commission has concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to
take the life of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (Resigned, U.S. Army)
on April 10, 1963. The finding that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted
to murder a public figure in April 1963 was considered of
probative value in this investigation, although the Commission's
conclusion concerning the identity of the assassin was based on
evidence independent of the finding that Oswald attempted to kill
General Walker.

From: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walker.txt

 

[Soily]

It's all covered in Mcadam's article. The reason why the bag isn't in the crime scene photos is because two of the detectives took it with them when they left. Again, a little logic please.

"If the police officers forged a paper bag to explain how Oswald brought the rifle into the building unseen, wouldn't they have taken the time to photograph it where they were going to claim it was discovered on the sixth floor? "
"More importantly, how would they have known that Randle and Frazier were going to say they saw Oswald with a bag? They had not talked to either one yet. They were both friends with Oswald, so what motivation would they have to lie and frame him? "

"Among the six officers who did see the bag was Lieutenant J. C. Day, who not only saw it in the Depository but labeled it, "'Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day'" (4H267). Detective Robert Studebaker not only saw the bag but also dusted the bag for fingerprints while the bag was still in the depository. He also drew diagrams to show the placement of the bag (7H144-9). Both Officer Marvin Johnson and Detective L. D. Montgomery saw the bag and carried it out of the building to the station. Montgomery actually found the bag and left it so Studebaker could dust it for fingerprints (7H97-8). Detective Richard Sims, who assisted Lieutenant Day in removing the hulls, was also there when the bag was discovered (7H162). Officer E. D. Brewer was there for the discovery of every piece of evidence and hence saw the bag (6H306-8). While Montgomery and Johnson were leaving the depository with the bag, they were photographed by Jack Beers of the Dallas Morning News, William Allen of the Dallas Times-Herald and George Smith of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "

"The bag held a hard, heavy object that contained fibers matching those from the blanket the rifle was in and had Oswald's fingerprint and palmprint on it. But that's all a coincidence, right?"

I believe the Griggs article, written by an agnostic former policeman is more revealing that the mcadams article, written by a man who is a fanatical believer in Oswald's guilt.

A crime scene photo that doesn't show the evidence is evidentially worthless. You appear to not understand the purpose of crime scene photos, which are to show the evidence how it was found. If they don't show this then there is a massive question mark over that evidence. In the light of the almost farcical level of contradictory witness evidence shown in the Griggs article well you'd have to be a mcadams level fanatic not to have severe doubts over the bag. At the very least you have to conclude an unbelievable amount of incompetence on the part of the dallas police. Your beliefs are one thing, but try and take the bag evidence to a court of law and you'd be laughed out of town.

 

[Soily]

From: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walker.txt

The only evidence that counts in the walker case, is the contemporary uncontaminated by the contentious case of JFK, evidence. All of that evidence shows the bullet was not fired from the Oswald rifle. It's really clear. Even Walker, a senior army professional of many many years experience, who actually held the bullet in his hand, said it wasn't from the Oswald rifle. That all this evidence magically metamorphosed during the Warren commission is hardly surprising. If you can provide a cogent case as to how all the contemporary investigations show a different bullet, and how this direct contemporary evidence was retrospectively rewritten post JFK then I will concede the point.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The only evidence that counts in the walker case, is the contemporary uncontaminated by the contentious case of JFK, evidence. All of that evidence shows the bullet was not fired from the Oswald rifle. It's really clear. Even Walker, a senior army professional of many many years experience, who actually held the bullet in his hand, said it wasn't from the Oswald rifle. That all this evidence magically metamorphosed during the Warren commission is hardly surprising. If you can provide a cogent case as to how all the contemporary investigations show a different bullet, and how this direct contemporary evidence was retrospectively rewritten post JFK then I will concede the point.

Cite to Walker's claim that it definitely didn't come from a Mannlicher-Carcano? Where is his lab for examining the land and groove pattern? Which type of calipers did he use to measure the diameter? Where does he keep the side-by-side comparison microscope for comparing two different bullets? I already gave you the cite for the FBI's ballistics expert's testimony. Remember, Walker's two private investigators came up empty when they investigated the alleged miffed employee, contrary to your previous assertion.

 

[Soily]

No, Walker suspected an embittered employee because he had never heard of Oswald. But Oswald had heard of him. The bullet was a 6.5 mm bullet, not .30-06 as claimed. If it had been a .30 caliber bullet, there would have been no way to tell if it had come from a .30-06, a .308, or any of a dozen other .30 caliber cartridges. That's a moot point because the bullet was 6.5 mm, same as the Mannlicher-Carcano. Someone's been feeding you a line.

Sorry, but the contemporary reports all show the bullet fired at walker was steel jacketed. The bullet the Warren commission say Oswald fired is one of the copper jacketed jfk bullets. Please don't try to rewrite history.

 

[Soily]

Cite to Walker's claim that it definitely didn't come from a Mannlicher-Carcano? Where is his lab for examining the land and groove pattern? Which type of calipers did he use to measure the diameter? Where does he keep the side-by-side comparison microscope for comparing two different bullets? I already gave you the cite for the FBI's ballistics expert's testimony. Remember, Walker's two private investigators came up empty when they investigated the alleged miffed employee, contrary to your previous assertion.

The ballistics testimony of the WC is completely worthless when all the evidence shows the walker bullet was steel jacketed, not the copper jacketed Oswald bullet. Unless you can explain how all the contemporary reports, those pre JFK, got the bullet type so completely wrong, you have nothing.

Now the steel jacketed bullet fired at walker could have come from the Oswald rifle, but that's not what the Warren Commision said. They said the same ammunition as the jfk shooting was fired at walker. Wrong.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Sorry, but the contemporary reports all show the bullet fired at walker was steel jacketed. The bullet the Warren commission say Oswald fired is one of the copper jacketed jfk bullets. Please don't try to rewrite history.

Incredible as it sounds, there are steel jacketed bullets and copper jacketed bullets and they can both be fired from the same gun. Which part of history did you have me rewriting?

Now the steel jacketed bullet fired at walker could have come from the Oswald rifle, but that's not what the Warren Commision said. They said the same ammunition as the jfk shooting was fired at walker. Wrong.

Cite?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Even Walker, a senior army professional of many many years experience, who actually held the bullet in his hand, said it wasn't from the Oswald rifle.

Special Agent Robert Frazier of the FBI, ballistics expert, said it could have come from the Oswald rifle. That means that it was the same caliber and had the same number and width lands and grooves. Frazier

estimated that he has made "in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000" firearms comparisons and has testified in court on about 400 occasions.

How many had Walker made? Also, if you could provide a citation to Walker's analysis, that would be super. You're kind of falling behind in your citations here.