Conspiracy Theories, and Number of People Involved

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I like the way you worded that to pass off your opinion as some widely accepted truth, which it isn't. Sorry.

While YOUR opinion, widely accepted by kooks of all stripes, will bear no inspection.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Even though Oswald fired three shots?

CTers can't count that high.

 

[riptowtan]

CTers can't count that high.

Here's my favorite example:
http://www.ifc.com/videos/new-world-order-clip-2.php

 

[Sivan Kurzberg]

This thread makes a really good point considering that most skeptics believe that crimes like the JFK assassination, or 9/11 were pulled off by a small amount of people. I wonder why they always claim any other way would take thousands of conspirators? Well not really wonder.

 

[catsmate]

Or unless they decide to make a deal with the prosecutors and testify against their fellow conspirators. Or they have a religious conversion and confess to "save their souls". Or figure out some Evil Means to rat out their pals so they get the whole world for themselves (Hey, they're evil right?).

Or a conspirator discovers they're dying and has nothing to lose by telling all.

 

[BeAChooser]

In order to believe in conspiracies that are kept secret forever because no one talks, you have to believe in things for which there is no evidence.

How about conspiracies where some people do talk? Where they reveal something about the facts that is potentially quite incriminating, but the powers that be do a very good job of keeping the general populace from ever learning about that, threaten the whistleblowers, and thus are able to shut down any investigation of the matter?

Take for example the case of Ron Brown, where every single forensic pathologist (other than the head of AFIP who was demonstrably part of the coverup team) who looked at the wound in Brown's head or examined the x-rays and photos, stated the wound looked like a bullet wound and that Brown should definitely have been autopsied. Most Americans have no idea that about half a dozen top military and civilian forensic pathologists said that. That even the pathologist who examined Brown's body later admitted he'd was wrong in not ordering an autopsy and that what the photos and x-rays show was a "red flag". Most people have no idea that's what happened because the liberal mainstream press only published what the top people in the adminstration said … like statements by the head of AFIP and by the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force (both of whom demonstrably lied about the facts in the case). The public doesn't know that the whistleblowers … some of them democrats … were then severely punished by their superiors. Their careers were ruined … even though prior to their whistleblowing, they were considered the BEST forensic pathologists in the Air Force, especially where gunshot is concerned. And the public doesn't know. Most of them still think Brown's plane crashed because of bad weather, even though the official Air Force report stated weather was not a significant factor. No, in this case, the government's ability to control what information was released to the public, along with a compliant media simpathetic to a democrat President, made sure the many allegations in this matter were never heard by the vast majority of Americans. And thus a proper investigation never occurred.

 

[MaGZ]

Way to miss the point.

The point is not that conspiracies don't need to be large, or that lots of people can't keep a secret. The point is that the spread and scope of some claimed conspiracies (such as 9/11 and the Moon landing) make them entirely implausible.

The Bletchley Park "conspiracy" was a matter of national security, defending the homeland against attack. The secret was kept by honest patriots. The claimed 9/11 "conspiracy" was a government secretly planning an attack on its own people. What honest patriot would seriously keep a secret like that?

The shoot down of the plane in PA and the near shoot down over the WTC were considered part of national security.
Ditto the demolition of WTC 7.

 

[Sabretooth]

The shoot down of the plane in PA and the near shoot down over the WTC were considered part of national security.
Ditto the demolition of WTC 7.

So much fail in one post. That's amazing.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The shoot down of the plane in PA and the near shoot down over the WTC were considered part of national security.
Ditto the demolition of WTC 7.

Listen, um...

Never mind. Not even worth it.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Lots of people consciously and subconsciously contributed to a cover-up for a whole variety of reasons given. .

Were they sleep-conspiring?

 

[AaronMic22]

Back in my truther days, I thought it was chillingly genius to consider that the people who were in the know about the 911 conspiracy were the passengers on the planes. If you could find a way to narrow it down so that only about 200 people (roughly the number of passengers on all 4 planes) had to be in on the plan. They would be tricked into boarding the flights by Bush & co.

 

[Horatius]

Here's my favorite example:
http://www.ifc.com/videos/new-world-order-clip-2.php

The wonderful thing about that clip: not only can they not count that high, they also don't realize that trees grow.

This thread makes a really good point considering that most skeptics believe that crimes like the JFK assassination, or 9/11 were pulled off by a small amount of people. I wonder why they always claim any other way would take thousands of conspirators? Well not really wonder.

Equivocate much?


CTists like to trot this one out occassionally, while completely (deliberately?) ignoring the fact that we believe fundamentally different things about what happened on 9/11.

Us: 19 guys hijacked 4 planes, and crashed them into various landmarks/bits of ground. People needed? 19, plus financiers, maybe some support people getting them into the US. Everything else that happened that day, and on subsequent days, was nothing more than the expected workings of various police/fire/military/engineering/scientific organizations, doing the best job they could in the situation.


You: Rig 3/4 buildings with explosives/thermite sufficient to blow them the **** up, technicians to rig planes with remote controls/people willing to die to fly planes as part of a big fake/people to create fake planes to insert into video feeds, people to plant evidence all over the place, people to fake phone calls from the planes/kill all the passengers/????, people to cover up all the evidence of explosives/thermite/space beams/???, people to intimidate everyone who might possibly come forward to call BS on any of the above, the entire engineering staff of NIST, and every other reputable technical organization that has taken a serious look at what happened on 9/11, not to mention every single person on the internet that's ever tried to explain the errors of your thinking, and been labeled "Shills" (that's us!).

And that's just off the top of my head, after a very long and tiring day.


Can you really not see how our two positions are not at all comparable as to the required numbers of conspirators?

 

[Sivan Kurzberg]

The wonderful thing about that clip: not only can they not count that high, they also don't realize that trees grow.

Equivocate much?


CTists like to trot this one out occassionally, while completely (deliberately?) ignoring the fact that we believe fundamentally different things about what happened on 9/11.

Us: 19 guys hijacked 4 planes, and crashed them into various landmarks/bits of ground. People needed? 19, plus financiers, maybe some support people getting them into the US. Everything else that happened that day, and on subsequent days, was nothing more than the expected workings of various police/fire/military/engineering/scientific organizations, doing the best job they could in the situation.


You: Rig 3/4 buildings with explosives/thermite sufficient to blow them the **** up, technicians to rig planes with remote controls/people willing to die to fly planes as part of a big fake/people to create fake planes to insert into video feeds, people to plant evidence all over the place, people to fake phone calls from the planes/kill all the passengers/????, people to cover up all the evidence of explosives/thermite/space beams/???, people to intimidate everyone who might possibly come forward to call BS on any of the above, the entire engineering staff of NIST, and every other reputable technical organization that has taken a serious look at what happened on 9/11, not to mention every single person on the internet that's ever tried to explain the errors of your thinking, and been labeled "Shills" (that's us!).

And that's just off the top of my head, after a very long and tiring day.


Can you really not see how our two positions are not at all comparable as to the required numbers of conspirators?

Can I really not see how... not ... what...?

If you believe the death and destruction committed on 9/11 can be pulled off by a few people on the outside, then one would have to think that a black op executed from the inside would be much easier to pull off.

All your fantasies there and the way you present them are your fantasies not mine.

 

[SpitfireIX]

If you believe the death and destruction committed on 9/11 can be pulled off by a few people on the outside, then one would have to think that a black op executed from the inside would be much easier to pull off.

Only if those few people are willing to die by flying the planes into their targets. Further, if you claim that rigging the towers for demolition was required, the number of people involved in the conspiracy will be vastly larger.

 

[Doc Daneeka]

Show me the Nazi who blabbed about the holocaust. Show me the CIA officials who spilled the beans about MK Ultra. None of the direct participants at Bletchley Park talked for 30 years. Show me the key players in watergate talking prior to it's exposure. I mean show me the actual direct conspirators spilling the beans? I think it rarely if ever happens. People do talk, but usually those peripherally or marginally involved, usually in the concealment of evidence rather than the criminal conspiracy.

Actually, the holocaust was a very badly kept secret from the very start. The RSHA actually had to order the Einsatzgruppen members to stop sending pictures and letters home detailing their mass murders.

Was Himmer writing to the Times to blow the whistle? No. Doesn't matter - it still got out very quickly, even though the people blabbing about it stood a very good chance of being sent to the front to be pounded by Red Army artillery instead of spending their time shooting helpless civilians.

I'm just saying...

 

[Horatius]

Can I really not see how... not ... what...?

If you believe the death and destruction committed on 9/11 can be pulled off by a few people on the outside, then one would have to think that a black op executed from the inside would be much easier to pull off.

All your fantasies there and the way you present them are your fantasies not mine.

Only if those few people are willing to die by flying the planes into their targets. Further, if you claim that rigging the towers for demolition was required, the number of people involved in the conspiracy will be vastly larger.

Yep, more willful equivocation. Crashing planes into towers that then collapse due to impact and fire damage is in no way comparable in complexity to any of the popular conspiracy theories about what happened on 9/11. Explosives, Thermite, space beams, no planes, destroyed evidence, planted evidence, military stand downs, shoot down cover ups, the list goes on.

Unless the truther in question supports a CT that is physically indistinguishable from the "OCT", they believe in something that would be vastly more complicated, and thus would involve vastly more people.

And if their CT is physically indistinguishable, then they must admit that the vast majority of "evidence" the truth movement has been pimping over the last decade has been utter and complete bollocks.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Crashing planes into towers that then collapse due to impact and fire damage is in no way comparable in complexity to any of the popular conspiracy theories about what happened on 9/11. Explosives, Thermite, space beams, no planes, destroyed evidence, planted evidence, military stand downs, shoot down cover ups, the list goes on.

Therein lies the problem. If you take all that stuff off the table, then there's no longer any reason to believe in an "inside job". Those are all the smoking guns!