Invitation to Derek Johnson to discuss his ideas

[Derek Johnson]

Explain us why thermal expansion cannot cause the failure of those elements.

Do you agree the concrete slabs was not designed to resist that shear stresses? Do you agree that axial expansion of a beam causes shear forces on the slabs transmited by "shear connectors"?

"The boundary conditions and temperatures were selected to create maximum shear forces on the stud connectors and beam and girder connections." NCSTAR 1-9, p. 349.

Please justify this. Thanks.

 

[Oystein]

Hmm, not so much Oystein. I know this:
...

Yes, so much, snotty, arrogant punk. Here is your challenger:

Derek,
...
History:

...I STRONGLY recommended that you find an unbiased, experienced, successful structural engineer and review both your assertions & my responses. And I strongly recommended that you do this before you got up on stage & (while impressing the daylights out of the clueless) humiliated yourself in public amongst knowledgeable engineers with your nonsense

Please explain to me why you clearly chose to ignore this advice. From that day to this.
___

...
Focus Meanwhile, if the discussion here is going to continue, I've got some requirements. I don't have time for your bouncing off the walls, going from one topic to another. If you can't focus, this is a waste of time. If you can focus, you can learn a lot. Focus requires that we take one topic at a time, get it DONE & put to bed, before we move on to the next. Focus requires that you state your question clearly & precisely. Focus requires that you answer my questions. I will do everything that I ask from you. Please state clearly that you agree to these terms. ...
___

It's a real shame that you haven't yet met some old fart engineer or manager who FORCED you to implement this sort of discipline.

As a direct result, you are an absolutely classic case of "All motion, no progress".

tom

That's some awesome advice and a generous offer to help your arse out, Derek.

 

[TruthersLie]

If you want to get to the bottom of WTC 7, JREF friends, then we should discuss those magic expanding AND buckling floor beams that magically pushed the 79 to 44 girder off (NIST said it walked off) its seat.

We need to discuss the columns too. They dissipate energy in buckling. I want to talk about this energy at great length.

Is there anyone here that is willing to take me up on this challenge?

I eagerly await this challenge.

Thank you.
Derek

First things first derek. YOu were asked repeatedly if you could identify any molten material by sight.

Can you identify those 7 pictures that Oy posted, a simple yes or no will suffice.

We can move on once you have answered that question.

 

[leftysergeant]

Thanks. I just wanted to be sure that ae811truth.org (through Derek) would be aware of these possibilities. Imagine if Harrit for instance had never ever thought about the interior of the hollow core columns ? Where could he put his 100 tons of nanothermite ? But NOW !!!

If he did think of the possibility of placing thermite insdide the box columns, he's an even bigger idiot than I took him for.

As for the fire proofing containing Portland cement, this is one of the reasons that it would NOT be able to cover a blaze as hot as that crearted by enough thermite to take out the column. There is water in it. It actually LOSES strength when it is hot. If you expand the steel to which it is attached, it will flake off.

Do think these things out before you post.

 

[bill smith]

Hey, Bill

This is fabulous to hear. I was talking on the phone with my friend, Ron Wieck, the other day (you might remember him as he used to be a member here) and I suggested to him that you would make a splendid guest on Hardfire and asked him if he would be willing to do a show, "An Evening with Bill Smith" and giving you a choice of either being interviewed one on one by Ron, or presenting your unique insights into firefighting to a member of the FDNY. He enthusiastically agreed. Now, that conversation was based on your performance in one of the "building seven" threads, but this above is even more awesome.

I'm pretty confident that he would accommodate this as well, and give you the opportunity to present your strong case and your extremely strong case. So, what do you say? Surely, you'd take the opportunity to spread your case to a wider audience and go on the record live, right?

(Note: I don't want to derail this thread but I also didn't want to start a new thread as it might look like a call-out thread, and a short aside and some thread 'drift' is permissible, so that's why I posted this here when I saw your post above.)

Well....I hardly know what to say...wow...the Ron Wieck show. I was kind of waiting for Larry to ask though, I do remember Ron as 'Pomeroo'though that was a little before my time. I knew him here in his 'FineWine' skin for a while until he was banned or suspended.

I wouldn't do the 10,000 tons of steel in the WTC1 basement as a first appearance though. Maybe the story of flight 93 hitting WTC7 would work better on TV ? I could bring it to life for the audience allowing them to see the simple beauty and logic of it.

Is there a forum where Ron posts regularly ? I wouldn't mind administering the 'estocado' again. That's just our lttle joke by the way.

 

[bill smith]

If he did think of the possibility of placing thermite insdide the box columns, he's an even bigger idiot than I took him for.

As for the fire proofing containing Portland cement, this is one of the reasons that it would NOT be able to cover a blaze as hot as that crearted by enough thermite to take out the column. There is water in it. It actually LOSES strength when it is hot. If you expand the steel to which it is attached, it will flake off.

Do think these things out before you post.

Tell me why it's stupid to consider putting nanothermite inside the hollow core columns ?

 

[Oystein]

...
As for the fire proofing containing Portland cement, this is one of the reasons that it would NOT be able to cover a blaze as hot as that crearted by enough thermite to take out the column. There is water in it. It actually LOSES strength when it is hot. If you expand the steel to which it is attached, it will flake off.

Do think these things out before you post.

The main ingredient of Portlant Cement is Calcium silicate, which melts at very nearly the same temperature as iron: 1540°C.
(Of cours it would have stopped being Portland cement long before reaching that temperature)

 

[leftysergeant]

Tell me why it's stupid to consider putting nanothermite inside the hollow core columns ?

How do you even get it in?

 

[bill smith]

How do you even get it in?

Come on Sarge ?...you drill a hole, insert a pipe and pump it in. Easy-peasy.

 

[tfk]

If you want to get to the bottom of WTC 7, JREF friends, then we should discuss those magic expanding AND buckling floor beams that magically pushed the 79 to 44 girder off (NIST said it walked off) its seat.

We need to discuss the columns too. They dissipate energy in buckling. I want to talk about this energy at great length.

Is there anyone here that is willing to take me up on this challenge?

I eagerly await this challenge.

Thank you.
Derek

You bet.

Since you've got problems with the NIST report, here's how we need to start.

1. First, you need to demonstrate that you understand the NIST conclusions. So please state clearly the NIST assumptions or conclusions that are pertinent to your objections.

2. Please state clearly exactly what assumptions or conclusions you think NIST got wrong.

3. Please state clearly what you think are the correct assumptions or conclusions.

4. Please state clearly what evidence you have for both 2 & 3 above.


That ought to get us started.



tom

 

[bill smith]

The main ingredient of Portlant Cement is Calcium silicate, which melts at very nearly the same temperature as iron: 1540°C.
(Of cours it would have stopped being Portland cement long before reaching that temperature)

So when some professor described the fireproofing after the collapse as being 'glassy' you can understand how that might be ?

 

[leftysergeant]

Come on Sarge ?...you drill a hole, insert a pipe and pump it in. Easy-peasy.

Okay. Now show us an impliment with which that task can be accomplished.

Don't just hand-wave this. I say that there is no such impliment that you could sneak in without getting the building engineers up in your face demanding to know just what the hell you intend to do with THAT.

 

[leftysergeant]

So when some professor described the fireproofing after the collapse as being 'glassy' you can understand how that might be ?

You are, of course, referring to Astineh-Asl. The "glassy" fire protectant he was pointing out was on the outside of a beam that was clearly not thermite-damaged.

Did I mention that there were some freaking HOT Class A fires in that area?

 

[tfk]

If you want to get to the bottom of WTC 7, JREF friends, then we should discuss those magic expanding AND buckling floor beams that magically pushed the 79 to 44 girder off (NIST said it walked off) its seat.

Please explain what you find incomprehensible about NIST's explanation of "expanding & buckling floor beams".

Here are some big hints to help you along...

Do you think that that expanding & buckling happened simultaneously, or did one happen before the other? (Even bigger hint: do these two effects happen on the same time scale?)

Do you think that one may have happened as a direct result of the other?

If so, which one was the cause & which was the effect?

Biggest hint of all: Did the buckling happen as a result of THERMALLY generated stresses?

tom

 

[bill smith]

Okay. Now show us an impliment with which that task can be accomplished.

Don't just hand-wave this. I say that there is no such impliment that you could sneak in without getting the building engineers up in your face demanding to know just what the hell you intend to do with THAT.

Sarge...the perps controlled the building. They could do what they liked. Day and night. You know this.

 

[bill smith]

You are, of course, referring to Astineh-Asl. The "glassy" fire protectant he was pointing out was on the outside of a beam that was clearly not thermite-damaged.

Did I mention that there were some freaking HOT Class A fires in that area?

What was the hottest temperature that NIST reported in the Towers ?

 

[leftysergeant]

This:

“Primarily for the east tenant floor, when a floor beam thermally expanded, the beam displaced the girder at the interior end of the floor beam but did not displace the exterior frame at the other end of the floor beam.” - NCSTAR 1-9, p. 526.

Explains this:

Can the beams push the girder laterally (and break the intersecting girder's 4-bolt seated connection at column 79) if they have buckled in compression?

The exterior elements were stronger, at leas initially, than the inner, so the expanding beam would damage the interior member first. For your stuff to make sense, it seems to me, we would have to assume that there was no limit to how far the expanding steel girder could push those interior elements, and that, after reaching that limit and buckling, the girders immediately lost all elasticity and ceased to exert pressure (or what ever you want to call it) on either end. To categorically deny that the buckled columns could NOT have any stored-up potential energy or kinetic energy pressing on other elements would suggest that springs are a figment of our imagination.

Now, would you stop ranting about how we are ignoring your "Lagrange data" and actually show us the maths supporting your theories? You make the counter-intuitive claim so you bought the burden of proof.

And what energy are you saying that the columns absorbed or dispersed using this "Lagrange" principle? Heat? Aint going to happen. That would mnake steel-framed buildings impervious to heat. Aint so a bit.

BTW, what sort of thermite has silicon in it? You need to have an answer to that one, if you stand by your delusions that the spherules are thermite residue. A lot of them contain silicon. Some contain traces of chromium in very small amounts. A lot contain manganese, zinc, potassium and copper. Would you care to tell us how these things should NOT be found in welding fume from construction of the towers?

You seem to have brought the wrong set of luggage here. You need the rational, not the snarky suit for the cocktail hour.

 

[leftysergeant]

Sarge...the perps controlled the building. They could do what they liked. Day and night. You know this.

Proof? The ENGINEERS in the engineering section would know better than to let somebody come in with unauthorized equipment. In case you missed it, the engineering section was nearly exterminated by the collapses. Or are they the same sorts of cowering, weak-kneed milquetoasts that you seem to think the fire fighters and cops are and would stay silent about an attempt to kill them?

 

[leftysergeant]

What was the hottest temperature that NIST reported in the Towers ?

That is really not as relevant as you think. They only commented on temperatures that they could prove prevailed in given areas.

Mostly, they used the condition of the paint as a guide. If the paint burned off, they had no idea how hot it got unless the steel is obviously melted. No such thing witnessed at WTC.

But remember that glass can be melted at a far lower temperature than can steel, and Portland cement is not that far off of what the Phoenicians first melted down to make glass. (In a camp fire on the beach.)

 

[T.A.M.]

Guys;

I have noticed a yellow card or two, as well as moderator editing in this thread. Yesterday many posts were moved to AAH.

Do not let Derek's juvenile, PDoh like behavior get you suspended or banned from this forum. With his behavior, he will do that to himself in a matter of time. Remember, even engineers can behave like kindegarteners.

TAM