Is God necessary for (objective) morality?

Can there not be objective AND subjective morality? As in, it's objectively wrong to rape babies for sport, but subjectively wrong to a fundamentalist Christian for homosexuals to get married. Clearly there's a lot of latitude/variation on (for instance) sexual mores, and less when you get to the extreme cases. It's been said on this thread that if morality were objective, everyone would agree on it. That's an exagerration, there will always be outliers who can be found to disagree with what the vast majority sees as objective reality (flat earthers, for instance),
The difference with the "flat Earthers" is that there are no value judgements invovled. The shape of the world is not "good" or "bad" and that does not change as circumstances change. What is "moral" is fundamentally concerned with what is "good" and "bad", and those judgements change, even for an individual according to changing circumstance.

but if that's a valid point in general, couldn't we conclude that a moral point everyone can agree on is objective (based on observed reality)?
Find one.

To ramble further, objective doesn't equal universal. It's perfectly valid to talk about objective morals (determination of right and wrong) that apply only to humans and similar beings.
I'm okay with limiting the discussion to the only moral species we know exists. :)

There could conceivably be some sentient species in the Crab Nebula whose babies need a proper raping in order to develop properly and the adults have evolved to enjoy it, in which case I would argue that preventing the needed rape is objectively wrong for a member of that species.
We don't even have to go that far. All we need is a couple of (human) people holding a family hostage telling the father to rape the baby and they all go free or the rest of the family is raped to death. Or taking a child's virginity to keep it from being used as a human sacrifice. But none of these "right" or "wrong" judgements exist independantly of thought or a human brain.

Piscivore is making much about exceptions like that, as though Bob and Carol having different needs and wants means that a principle that it's wrong to do to Bob and Carol what they don't need and don't want is necessarily subjective.
They are not just "exceptions"- they are fundamentally differerent value judgements.

True, what's wrong to do to Bob may not be wrong to do to Carol, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong to do to them what's bad for them.
But see- what is "bad for them" isn't objective. They are value judgements that exist only in human minds- Bobs, Carol's, mine, yours- whoever observes what happens to them and judges the event "good" or "bad". What is "bad" to do to Bob may be "good" to do to Carol, and what is "bad" to do to Bob today might be "good" to do to Bob tomorrow. Something that happens to Bob that is "good" to Bob might be "bad" to Ted, and contrariwise.

It is up to those postulating an "objective morality" to find an "exception" to that- the one thing that is "bad" to do to anybody, anywhere, at any time, in any circumstance.
 
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I've asked for the "correct" definition many times. Funny how no one can articulate one.

I think you (we) make the mistake of expecting it to make sense and therefore miss it when it is offered.

"Values which are specific to the act" is meaningless.

I'm not trying to claim that it is sensible. :)

Actions do not make value judgements. The universe does not look at a tree falling in the forest and think, "that's a shame". And physics doesn't get it's panties in a twist when someone ****s a kid.

Only humans- individual humans- do that. There is no "right" or "wrong" that does not exist in some human's head. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

So, with that in mind, which values are independent of an individual? "Sexual intercourse with an immature member of one's species" isn't one, because it is easily observed that there are individuals that do not have a problem with this.

At issue is not whether individuals commit immoral acts and whether they fail to recognize that it's immoral or manage to rationalize it. It's whether the act itself has the property of 'right' or 'wrong' (i.e. whether the universe gets its panties in a twist about it, although this seems so indefensible that surely what is meant is that humans universally get their panties in a twist (although I also realize Westprog specifically excluded this slightly more sensible interpretation)).

Linda
 
They might not. It's not an argument that objective morality exists, it's just the definition.


In which case the definition is self-contradictory, and doesn't require further discussion.

But to try and be a bit more helpful, I see morality as having three categories, not two, which makes the distinctions between objectivity and subjectivity a bit easier.

Moral - What people normally think of as "good" actions.
Immoral - What people normally think of as "bad" actions.
Amoral - Actions that aren't subject to a good/bad dichotomy.

It is possible to divide actions objectively into amoral or not-amoral groups, but I do not believe it is possible to divide actions objectively into moral/immoral groups. I had an off-line discussion with Piscivore about this some time ago, and I am of the opinion that morality only means anything when two or more parties are involved. I don't think morality can be applied to actions where only you are affected. You can perform "bad" actions on yourself, but I would call that stupid, not immoral.

Now, where the subjectivity creeps in is in defining what one means by two parties. For example, most people would consider an infant to be a moral agent, but apparently not all people view them this way. This can easily be seen in the cultures that practiced infanticide or had other rituals recognizing the status of a newborn as a member of the tribe. For example, pre-contact Hawai'i didn't recognize an infant as a "person" until their first birthday, mostly due to a high infant mortality rate.

This gets even murkier when you talk about moral actions outside of the human species, or worse, between members of different species.
 
With objective morality we can look back on societies in the past that sacrificed humans to the gods, and say "yup, that was f'ed up." If it's subjective, we can just say "well, I think it was terrible, but they only had a different system of morality than we do, no better, no worse."

I confess that I don't understand the concept of objective morality at all. How could one discover it? "Now this is objective"? I would say that whether there is objective morality or not, we, as humans, could never be certain that we have found it. How could we be certain? What is the criteria for objective morality - how would I recognize it if I should bump into a specific morality that it actually is not just any old morality but Mr (or Ms) Objective Morality? (I'm not sure that the obvious answers will do.) Anyway, even if morality would be a local, social construct, I don't see that from that would follow total relativity as regards ****ed-up past (or present) civilizations or child rapists. I can easily say as I think that individual freedom should be a central value in any society that I think that Sweden is a much better place than Saudi Arabia. I could just as easily agree that it can be legitimately thought that individual freedom is not such an important criteria - however I would still act and think according to my own values and evaluate different societies objectively based on that criteria. I don't see any catastrophic relativism in this way of thinking, although it abandons the concept of objective morality (as a practical issue, though in theory I concede that there might be objective morality, though if there is, it has obviously been mislaid somewhere).
 
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I've been tought that humans and other social animals have a genetic tendency to want to live in harmony with fellow members of their species. This is why during a feeding frenzy piranas do not attack other members of the school. This is why there are pecking orders among chickens and why most of us don't murder and steal.

I think that about sums it up. Obviously, as Quadraginta pointed out, the way to get there can be fairly messy, but in the long run, like bees, we're programmed to "want" to succeed at surviving, using cooperative social groups, protection of the weak, etc. to further that goal. The urge is so strong that it almost seems to be an objective reality or force, as real as gravity or whatever. If you step off a cliff, you'll fall; if you rape a baby, you'll, well, it's just wrong, y'know.

Obviously some people are missing this internal control on behavior or have it to a smaller or greater degree, and it's open to a great deal of influence depending on environment and peer pressure.

But if there's an objective morality, I'd say it's objective only for each genetic group and it's based on survival of that group's genetic material. It's morally right to swat a bee to keep it from stinging our baby but it's morally right for the bee to defend the hive.

Unfortunately, it gets tautological pretty quick. We're here to survive, so surviving is right, but if we didn't survive, we wouldn't be here...

So it all winds up with the fact that most of us are born believing that acting in the overall best interest of fellow humans when it won't cause excessive harm to ourselves, is "right" in the same way that we're born with an immune system, hunger, an urge to reproduce and all the other things that make us succeed at surviving. I think pushing it much beyond that would be like arguing if there's an objective force called "hunger" that exists outside of our subjective feelings.
 
I should add, if morality requires that two or more parties be involved, and plumjam's notion that everyone and everything is all part of one big cosmic consciousness is true, then all actions are amoral. There is no such thing as morality, only stupidity.
 
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I think you (we) make the mistake of expecting it to make sense and therefore miss it when it is offered.



I'm not trying to claim that it is sensible. :)
Fair enough. :D

At issue is not whether individuals commit immoral acts and whether they fail to recognize that it's immoral or manage to rationalize it. It's whether the act itself has the property of 'right' or 'wrong' (i.e. whether the universe gets its panties in a twist about it, although this seems so indefensible that surely what is meant is that humans universally get their panties in a twist (although I also realize Westprog specifically excluded this slightly more sensible interpretation)).
Indeed he did. And that is why he fails. :)
 
In which case the definition is self-contradictory, and doesn't require further discussion.

But to try and be a bit more helpful, I see morality as having three categories, not two, which makes the distinctions between objectivity and subjectivity a bit easier.

Moral - What people normally think of as "good" actions.
Immoral - What people normally think of as "bad" actions.
Amoral - Actions that aren't subject to a good/bad dichotomy.

It is possible to divide actions objectively into amoral or not-amoral groups, but I do not believe it is possible to divide actions objectively into moral/immoral groups. I had an off-line discussion with Piscivore about this some time ago, and I am of the opinion that morality only means anything when two or more parties are involved. I don't think morality can be applied to actions where only you are affected. You can perform "bad" actions on yourself, but I would call that stupid, not immoral.
Good points, thanks for reminding me.
 
Good points, thanks for reminding me.


To further expand on that, in some other thread going on, plumjam seems to claim that atheists must be amoral, since there is no standard for behavior in atheism (well, duh). Conflating amorality with immorality is stupid, and assuming a lack of standards in one area of a person's beliefs means the same lack of standards throughout all of that person's beliefs is equally stupid.

Sorry for the rant, bluskool, I will behave now.
 
Seriously? Go back and read again. I used no analogies whatever. Here, I'll simplify it as much as I can for you.

Objective morality: Right and wrong independent of any mind (facts about the universe)

Subjective morality: Right and wrong dependent on mind (stuff people think is right and wrong)
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Children will sustain several adults for a short period of time.
Or one adult for a longer period of time.
Killing the child for sustenance is only "bad" in that the child's death from starvation doesn't occur also.
That's why animals which have no moral restrictions consume the young of other animals, and sometimes their own.
The only absolute (your "objective") rights and wrongs refer to arbitrary definitions of locations. Right side, left side, etc, Dexter, sinister... and these are arbitrary, not absolute.
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And thanks for finally defining your understanding of the term.
The facts of the universe independent of the mind aren't moral at all.
There is no way gravity, pi, etc. have anything remotely connected to behavior.
Gravity pulls on -everything-, best of intentions not withstanding.
 
Yes I will be. I read it last night and had some thoughts, but I can't respond in depth cause I am at work and have barely had a free second today. There are other posts I want to respond to too when I get a chance.
Thanks! I look forward to it. I am enjoying the thread because of your posts. They have been a great help in clarifying some ideas for me.
 
The facts of the universe independent of the mind aren't moral at all.

I believe this is quite an essential point - it is just that the whole issue of morality, of good and bad, to my mind oozes of opinion, of personal judgment. There is no need for judgment if the issue is of an objective fact. Then we would be talking of observations, have we observed correctly, but there surely is no way to measure accurately whether a particular moral judgment is objectively correct or not. Against what criteria could we make the measurement, how would we make such a measurement? There might be a god, some sort of a powerful supernatural being that is supposed to know, but he/she/it seems to be an awfully muddled communicator, and in case we would still have have to make our personal judgment should this extremely unlikely creature ever present itself - maybe he/she/it would not be god at all but only a powerful evil demon only posturing as God. No, I don't get it. But even so, I don't see that total relativity would be the only other choice - why would that follow?
 
It's not that much of a stretch to consider there -is- an evil creature running -this- universe, due to the absence of the originator of it all.
But wouldn't such a thing be incapable of coordinating all the building blocks that make up this one as well as they are assembled, being a flawed individual itself?
There is the awful behavior man exhibits towards man, which can be excused as generated from without, by this bad guy in the absence of the good guy, but I think man needs no external impetus to be awful.
For many, it's their first nature.
 
In one of his posts that was shipped off to AAH, Plumjam used music as an analogy for objective morality. As the problem seems to have stemmed from Plumjam's personalization of the arguments, I'm pretty sure that the mods will not object if I resurrect only the sentences relating to the musical argument.

plumjam said:
Does great music exist?
Obviously it does.
If someone you demanded to define great music in words either could not do so or couldn't be arsed with your boring line of discusson, would that mean that great music would have to stop existing?
This analogy actually works against Plumjam's argument. Qualitative statement regarding music are completely subjective. There is no music which is "objectively great". My subjective opinion is that Mozart's Mass in C minor K. 427 is a very beautiful piece of music. But if someone felt otherwise I could not state that that person's opinion was objectively wrong and therefor inferior to my own. I also love Tom Waits and Frank Zappa. Others don't. Who is objectively correct regarding the qualities of their music? I love Ali Akbar Khan but I do not care for deathcore. Is Ustad Khan objectively better than Suicide Silence? I can certainly make that claim, but I would just be arrogantly imposing my subjective opinion on others.
 
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This is an excellent point, and one where I simply see it from a different light. I don't consider the descriptive version of objectivity to actually be objective.

Why wouldn't the descriptive version be objective? To go back to the gravity example, the theory of gravity is our description of how physical objects behave in our universe. But it's only a description of something we observe, it's not as though there is something out there watching over the physical objects and making sure they follow the law that this something has prescribed. It seems to me that being descriptive is a necessary condition for any set of laws to be objective. Maybe I misunderstood you?

If the moral code is Dependant upon an independent set of variables (even if predictable) such as the set of societal interactions that are at play at that time, the moral code becomes subjective.

I am not sure I understand here either. It seems like you are saying that because the moral code changes based on societal conditions, it can't be objective. If that's what you mean, I don't think that follows. It could just be that our understanding of morality grows as we evolve. It certainly does seem like humanity does improve morally as time goes on. Very few people think that human sacrifice is good. Although, in my view, there is a ton of room for progress, even in the most developed societies. It also could be the case that when two societies disagree, one of them is just wrong (or both of them). It also could be the case that the one of the variables in morality is circumstance. For instance, my mental state is determined by activity in my brain and changes in my environment, but that doesn't make mental states subjective, it just means that the environment is a variable (to ward off a possible objection, when I say mental state, I mean the sum total of physical activity in my brain, not my perception of that activity, which would be subjective).


Now, just because morality is subjective, that doesn't mean there aren't moral codes that are better at sustaining a society than others.

That's true. I am not concerned with sustaining society though (at least not in the context of this discussion). Morality is helpful for sustaining and advancing society, but if that is all that is, I am still stuck with the idea that I really have no right to criticize other countries for the brutality or human rights violations that take place. I can say that that's not very socially advantageous, but I can't say they are doing anything really "wrong." This is what bothers me about subjective morality. But that doesn't mean that I won't accept it if it is true. Most of the time I do believe that morality is subjective, but every once in a while I hear an interesting argument that makes me reconsider.

This is true, and if you wish this to be called "objective morality", than so be it. But the fact that there can be multiple "steady states" which can support a society suggests to me that the practical aspect of morality is subjective.

Only if we assume that sustaining society is the objective (goal) of morality. And even then, there could just be different models that get the job done, but some could still be better. For example, the geocentric model of the universe was capable of predicting the orbits of the planets and location of the stars decently, it's just that the heliocentric model did a better job, was simpler and could explain more observations.


logic and reason. If you can't make a logical arguement why your action is acceptable to society, perhaps you should reconsider that action. Same thing for the other person.

What if someone said that punching their friend in the face is a good thing, and the pain, bruising and anger that result are all good. There's nothing illogical or unreasonable about that if you accept the premise that those things are good. I am sure you don't accept that, but since good and bad are subjective, how can you say he is wrong? At best you can say that you think he's wrong.

I don't think subjective morality is superior to objective morality. I merely think that objective morality is an illusion.

Definitely a strong possibility.

The mere existence of multiple highly contradictory claims of objective morality supports this.

It doesn't though. Some or all of those making the claim could be wrong.

So does recent fMRI studies, which demonstrates that people use the same mental centers in their brain to think of "god's" morality and their own.
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/51/21533.full.pdf

I don't think that study says anything about objective morality. It just shows that god is an idea that exists in people's heads, and that they use that idea to justify what they already think. Not a very surprising result, but it did provide me with a nice chuckle when it came out.:big:
 

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