• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
However, it would be easily settled, were you able to provide evidence of previous cases of suspects being fitted up and abused in Perugia...after all, according to you people, criminals all have a past...so, do you have evidence of the criminality of the Perugian police? Or did they only ever, en masse, turn rogue when Amanda arrived?

Patrick's account of being arrested is quite brutal. Funny that Amanda and her family get slapped with charges for talking about alleged police abuse after not retracting their statements, but at least two others who have come out against the police have since retracted theirs. I wonder why????
 
Okay Kevin...this is from an expert:

What comes four hours after 18:30? That being the time Meredith ate the meal of pizza which was still entirely in her stomach when she died? That would be 22:30.

That's one full hour before the Massei time of death. So even if we pretend for a minute that Derrick Pounder of the University of Dundee's unreferenced lecture notes trump the peer-reviewed scientific literature, which is an utterly absurd thing to pretend, you've still just shot a massive hole in your own foot. According to your own source, there is reasonable medical certainty Meredith was dead by 22:30 at the very latest.

Therefore Massei was wrong, and no matter whether you believe Curatolo or Amanda and Raffaele about their whereabouts before 22:30, either way they are innocent.

However, an academic's lecture notes aren't peer-reviewed scientific literature. The job of such notes is to conform to the literature. If the literature says one thing and Derrick Pounder of the University of Dundee's lecture notes say something else, that doesn't mean that the peer-reviewed scientific literature is wrong. It means that the lecture notes are wrong.

If we look at the actual scientific literature we see that an entire meal remaining in Meredith's stomach even two and a half hours after she ate it is rather unlikely. Not absolutely inconceivable, but an unexpected result. We also see that the later after that point you get, the less likely it is for her meal to still be in her stomach. We can conclude that the most likely time of death is the earliest possible one consistent with the statement of the girl who walked with her part of the way home, and any time after that is less likely.

That puts the most likely time of death as shortly after 21:05, very shortly after Meredith arrived home.

This also explains the unknown person fumbling with Meredith's phones around 22:00 and Meredith's phones pinging a novel tower shortly afterwards at 22:13, both events which are entirely inexplicable under the Massei narrative and which Massei conspicuously fails to plausibly explicate.

When I made a very similar post previously, your response was to highlight the words "at best" which followed "three or four hours", in the lecture notes of Derrick Pounder of the University of Dundee, and argue that this meant that absolutely any time of death is possible. Before you repost this argument you should consider the following:

Firstly, this response completely ignores the facts I have already explained to you regarding the relative significance of one guy's lecture notes and the peer-reviewed scientific literature, and the differences in factual claims between the two.

Secondly, you are cherry-picking the one phrase out of the lecture notes that suits you and ignoring the rest, which compounds the initial error of relying on someone's lecture notes rather than the peer-reviewed scientific literature.

Thirdly, you want us to believe a completely unknown and unspecified agency slowed Meredith's digestion, but you have absolutely no evidence any such agency exists. Do you have any evidence Meredith was in a coma, suffering from a gastric disorder, under the influence of large amounts (5+ standard drinks) of alcohol, on drugs, or subject to extreme stress in the period in which she was digesting her food? If you have no evidence that this was anything other than a normal, relaxed fun night for a normal, healthy young woman (up until she was attacked) you have absolutely no reason to believe that her digestion time should be wildly abnormal.

Fourthly, you're still ignoring the apparently-infallible Massei report! Professor Ronchi was quite clear that some explanation was needed for the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum, and tried to provide one. That particular explanation turned out to be wrong, of course, but are you seriously arguing that Professor Ronchi was incompetent in thinking he needed such an explanation in the first place?

As I said before, when a guilter is suddenly arguing against the Massei report or ignoring it completely, you've got to think that just maybe they've got a problem with their story.
 
It's a shame that the debate about "stomach/duodenum contents and time of death" seems to have gone so quiet. Surely someone who's convinced of Knox/Sollecito's guilt must have managed by now to find an academic paper in a recognised medical/scientific journal which gives clear evidence for T(lag) times in excess of 4.5 hours in healthy adults after eating moderate-sized meals? No?
 
Also, Fulcanelli, what's the actual difference in length between the footprints of Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito again?

It's on page 348 of the Massei report.
 
Edit: Also, since there was some mention of the pictures on PMF (thank for reminding me LondonJohn), having seen the picture of the second floor window, do you guys really believe Rudy broke in through there? I saw someone mention that the breakin was not staged, that is what led me to conclude that the assumption is he actually came in through that high window?

In case you haven't seen it, here is the infamous photo of the defense lawyer standing atop the bottom window grating. Note he is not even fully standing up on the top rung. I've seen mentioned on PMF that it is an unscalable wall, or that Rudy would have had to step on the nail for leverage.

It's easyt o tell from this photo that it would have been quite possible:

 
Last edited:
Patrick's account of being arrested is quite brutal. Funny that Amanda and her family get slapped with charges for talking about alleged police abuse after not retracting their statements, but at least two others who have come out against the police have since retracted theirs. I wonder why????

Yes. There were some incredibly extreme quotes directly ascribed to him in his interview with the Daily Mail shortly after his release from custody. These described factual events (as opposed to emotions or feelings) regarding not only his arrest, but also his treatment in custody. Here's the article again to refresh everyone's memory:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

Perhaps not surprisingly, Lumumba is full of vitriol towards Knox, who - as far as he was aware at that time - had implicated him callously and inexplicably. Furthermore, Knox had been firmly identified as a major suspect by this point, so it was fairly open season for him to be attacking her.

However, the interesting stuff is what he is quoted as saying about the Perugia police/prosecutor's actions. Remember, while he might feel aggrieved towards the police for having held him, the article suggests that he didn't really blame the police or prosecutor for his predicament - but instead he wholly blamed Knox. Furthermore, he owned and ran a bar in Perugia, in the course of which he would normally have wanted to foster a good working relationship with the local law enforcement community. But despite all this, he apparently had this to say in his interview with the Mail:

About his arrest:


"They (the 15-20 police who arrived to arrest him) were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns"

"I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified."

"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra (his wife) pulled Davide (his baby son) away, screaming."


About his interrogations in custody in the police HQ:


"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me."

"They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'"

"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess."

"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?' They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."


Interesting words, huh? Now, there are those who claim that these quotes were either made up or embellished by the Daily Mail (extremely unlikely, given UK libel laws), or that they were made up or embellished by Lumumba himself. However, they appear to be not only detailed and precise, they also make very serious allegations of physical, verbal and racial abuse against the Perugia police. I would be astonished if Lumumba would have said these things lightly, or indeed if the Mail would have published them lightly without asking Lumumba if he was prepared to stand behind them in any potential legal action against either the newspaper or Lumumba. I therefore think that what he said was true.

The same people who would try to minimise/explain away the quotes in the Mail article also take pains to point out that Lumumba himself disowned these quoted remarks in subsequent interviews and public statements. But I think that many people would be capable or reading between the lines to see why it might have been in Lumumba's personal interest to subsequently claim he was either "misquoted" or "misremembering"........
 
In case you haven't seen it, here is the infamous photo of the defense lawyer standing atop the bottom window grating. Note he is not even fully standing up on the top rung. I've seen mentioned on PMF that it is an unscalable wall, or that Rudy would have had to step on the nail for leverage.

It's easyt o tell from this photo that it would have been quite possible:

[qimg]http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5104/windowlawyerscaling.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, it does not appear too difficult. The problem with the pictures without the Lawyer dude is the lack of perspective. It seems to be a long distance between windows or even the ledge on the side. In reality, not very far at all.
 
Hi Solange305,
I just wanted to extend a welcome hello to you, and say that I am glad to have your input here also...

Thank you for the kind post RWVBWL, I really appreciate it. I will definitely read the Perugia Shock material you mentioned, if not tonight I will try tomorrow at work.

LondonJohn, why do you sound so condescending and angry in all your posts? I know it may not be directed at me personally, but since Im a "pro-guilter", Im starting to take it kind of personally. Cant we all start of over and discuss this in a rational way?
 
Yes. There were some incredibly extreme quotes directly ascribed to him in his interview with the Daily Mail shortly after his release from custody. These described factual events (as opposed to emotions or feelings) regarding not only his arrest, but also his treatment in custody. Here's the article again to refresh everyone's memory:

Thanks for posting this, John, and thanks, Fulcanelli, for inquiring about this again. I think it's quite telling, especially the similarities between his account and Amanda's. Has anyone ever been able to quote or find the source of where Patrick retracted these statements?
 
Yes, it does not appear too difficult. The problem with the pictures without the Lawyer dude is the lack of perspective. It seems to be a long distance between windows or even the ledge on the side. In reality, not very far at all.

That is true. But then Im trying to imagine that same guy pulling himself in through the window, which was also covered in broken glass, or broken, right? I might be wrong about that, that is my understanding. It seems kind of unlikely. Why would Rudy break into a house where people he knows, who might be home could identify him? Why break into a house where you have 4 seperate girls who lead their own lives live, meaning any one of them might be home at the time (as opposed to say a family living in a home, who would go on vacation all together or to dinner all together and leaving the home unoccupied). You guys have to realize there are assertions on both side that don;t make sense.
 
Yes, it does not appear too difficult. The problem with the pictures without the Lawyer dude is the lack of perspective. It seems to be a long distance between windows or even the ledge on the side. In reality, not very far at all.

I think the photo with lawyer lacks perspective also. Perhaps there is a series of photos - lawyer on the ground, lawyer climbing up first level window, lawyer scooting over Filomena's window, etc.

Video of lawyer scaling the wall would be better - perhaps this was done. Measurements would also help (from ground to first level window to Filomena's window, from planter ledge to window, etc).
 
That is true. But then Im trying to imagine that same guy pulling himself in through the window, which was also covered in broken glass, or broken, right? I might be wrong about that, that is my understanding. It seems kind of unlikely. Why would Rudy break into a house where people he knows, who might be home could identify him? Why break into a house where you have 4 seperate girls who lead their own lives live, meaning any one of them might be home at the time (as opposed to say a family living in a home, who would go on vacation all together or to dinner all together and leaving the home unoccupied). You guys have to realize there are assertions on both side that don;t make sense.

As far as breaking in through a window broken with a rock is concerned, it is indeed something that you or I wouldn't do for fun. However we have multiple independent reports linking Rudy Guede to crimes committed in exactly this way. It seems to have been his modus operandi to break a second storey window with a rock and then climb in to steal valuables.

It's perfectly possible he wore gloves when climbing through the window and rummaging around in Filomena's room. They would have been disposed of along with the other clothes he was wearing at the time of the murder, so we'll never know for sure, but if you find the idea of him climbing in bare-handed ridiculous then gloves are an obvious answer.

Why did he break into a house where people knew him? Well, we don't really know for sure since he isn't telling. However he'd just been busted after his last break-in and his loot confiscated. Since he had no other means of support that we are aware of, he was probably flat broke and very desperate. He needed to score some money fast, and he knew about this apartment with a group of girls living in it, who might well have cash for rent money on the premises. So I think he took a chance, and it worked out very badly for him and even worse for Meredith, who I believe came home while he was robbing the place and who could have identified him to police.

As far as the risk of someone being home, a plausible story is that he pitched the rock through the window and was poised to run if anyone inside the house reacted. When it turned out nobody was inside, he climbed in and started mucking around inside. Then Meredith came home, probably catching him literally with his pants down on the toilet.
 
Thank you for the kind post RWVBWL, I really appreciate it. I will definitely read the Perugia Shock material you mentioned, if not tonight I will try tomorrow at work.

LondonJohn, why do you sound so condescending and angry in all your posts? I know it may not be directed at me personally, but since Im a "pro-guilter", Im starting to take it kind of personally. Cant we all start of over and discuss this in a rational way?

I wasn't aware that I was being irrational. And I can't offer a defence if you think I'm condescending and angry - I can only say that I'm here to debate the case and am always happy to engage in a civilised argument. And since personality issues are off-limits on this forum, we should probably both leave it at that.
 
That is true. But then Im trying to imagine that same guy pulling himself in through the window, which was also covered in broken glass, or broken, right? I might be wrong about that, that is my understanding. It seems kind of unlikely. Why would Rudy break into a house where people he knows, who might be home could identify him? Why break into a house where you have 4 seperate girls who lead their own lives live, meaning any one of them might be home at the time (as opposed to say a family living in a home, who would go on vacation all together or to dinner all together and leaving the home unoccupied). You guys have to realize there are assertions on both side that don;t make sense.

It isn't uncommon for someone to steal from someone they know. Especially when desperate for money. We know Rudy, just two days earlier, was busted in Milan with stolen goods he was trying to sell. When he returned to Perugia he was without money because he'd been busted.
We know from Rudy's own words that he 'd been hanging around the cottage a while before Meredith got home, so in essence he'd "cased" it to make sure no one was home.
The photo of the inside of the window shows that the glass was on one half of the sill.
When Rudy was caught he still had cuts on his hands.



I should mention this is from Bruce's site. Injusticeinperugia.org
 
Last edited:
I wasn't aware that I was being irrational. And I can't offer a defence if you think I'm condescending and angry - I can only say that I'm here to debate the case and am always happy to engage in a civilised argument. And since personality issues are off-limits on this forum, we should probably both leave it at that.

Maybe rational wasn't the right word to use. But you sound condescending and rude. I am not trying to tell you what to say or do, but if the point is to debate and maybe get people to see your side of the story, you'll gain a lot more if you don't talk to people who oppose your view like they are idiots.

As far as the risk of someone being home, a plausible story is that he pitched the rock through the window and was poised to run if anyone inside the house reacted. When it turned out nobody was inside, he climbed in and started mucking around inside.

Although Im still not convinced he broke in, that scenario makes a lot more sense now with the way you explained it. That definitely seems more plausible then what I was imagining
 
Words of wisdom! Ignoring other people's arguments and hoping they go away is not persuasive.

Speaking of which, you really should reply to THIS POST OF MINE which you seem to have forgotten about.

Time to face up to the elephant in the room. If Meredith died at 21:05 or close to it, and Raffaele and Amanda were at home at that time, it's game over. The whole guilter house of cards comes crashing down.

A couple questions:

1) "R and A were "AT HOME" at that time"...

I assume you mean at R's home, yes?


2) I'm aware the time of death is debated.

OTOH, is it uncontested that R and A were at R's home at 21:05? Do both sides of the debate accept that as stipulated fact?
 
That is true. But then Im trying to imagine that same guy pulling himself in through the window, which was also covered in broken glass, or broken, right? I might be wrong about that, that is my understanding. It seems kind of unlikely. Why would Rudy break into a house where people he knows, who might be home could identify him? Why break into a house where you have 4 seperate girls who lead their own lives live, meaning any one of them might be home at the time (as opposed to say a family living in a home, who would go on vacation all together or to dinner all together and leaving the home unoccupied). You guys have to realize there are assertions on both side that don;t make sense.

If Guede did indeed break in at around 8.30-8.45pm, then nobody would have been at home. He might very well have watched the house for 5 minutes, checked that no lights were on and there were no noises, then prised open the external shutters and lobbed the rock through the window. He might then have retreated to the shadows to see if there was any response from within the girls' house (or the boys' house below) to the sound of the window breaking. Only when he witnessed no reaction (lights going on, noise of people moving around) would he have satisfied himself that there was nobody at home. Only then would he have risked actually climbing up and entering the house via the broken window.
 
Maybe rational wasn't the right word to use. But you sound condescending and rude. I am not trying to tell you what to say or do, but if the point is to debate and maybe get people to see your side of the story, you'll gain a lot more if you don't talk to people who oppose your view like they are idiots.

Errrr thanks for the advice. I'll take it on board. Although the word "irony" springs to mind.....

Edit: By the way - and I promise I'm being sincere here - accusing other posters of sounding condescending and rude is probably not going to go down well with those who run the JREF forums, as recent history has demonstrated. I would say that if you don't like my posting style, the best thing to do would be to send me a PM rather than posting it on the thread.
 
Last edited:
A couple questions:

1) "R and A were "AT HOME" at that time"...

I assume you mean at R's home, yes?

Yes. Their story, which is corroborated by the data on Raffaele's laptop's hard drive, is that they were at Raffaele's house at this time.

2) I'm aware the time of death is debated.

OTOH, is it uncontested that R and A were at R's home at 21:05? Do both sides of the debate accept that as stipulated fact?

Short answer, yes, both sides accept this.

The Massei report accepts it, and argues that they left shortly after this time, based on the testimonty of Curatolo who claims he saw them out and about around (from memory) 21:30.

This is inconsistent with the claim made by the appeal team that the police failed to report that a file named "Naruto ep 101.avi" was opened at 21:26. If Raffaele watched this file, that would have kept him at home until 21:49 or so at a minimum.

Raffaele and Amanda claim that after this they stayed home and watched a download of the move "Stardust".

Unfortunately for Raffaele and Amanda, while the laptop was in police custody some process or another updated the metadata for the relevant files, destroying the claimed evidence that they watched Stardust. It's a bit awkward for the prosecution case that the police destroyed the evidence which they knew at the time was vital to Amanda and Raffale's alibis.

Regardless of which of these pieces of information you accept as significant, the prosecution case has always been that the murder of Meredith Kercher was unpremeditated and took place after some kind of vague drug-fuelled romp went wrong. As such, if Raffaele and Amanda would have to have run from Raffaele's house to Amanda's house and stabbed Meredith the minute they got through the door in order to make the timeline work then the prosecution case is still in the toilet since there is absolutely no motive for such a murder nor any evidence of premeditation.
 
It isn't uncommon for someone to steal from someone they know. Especially when desperate for money. We know Rudy, just two days earlier, was busted in Milan with stolen goods he was trying to sell. When he returned to Perugia he was without money because he'd been busted.
We know from Rudy's own words that he 'd been hanging around the cottage a while before Meredith got home, so in essence he'd "cased" it to make sure no one was home.
The photo of the inside of the window shows that the glass was on one half of the sill.
When Rudy was caught he still had cuts on his hands.

[qimg]http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/6128/windowinside.jpg[/qimg]

I like that photo enlarged, it is very detailed. Thank you.

I am trying to imagine how the inner windows shut and latched and if they were shut and latched how easy or difficult it would be for someone to reach in through the broken glass, while balancing themselves on the window ledge, and unlatch them?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom