Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Amazer]

By that logic, the police should have no fear of false accusations of harassment and abuse of witnesses. I repeat, it really isn't fair. The police could get away with absolutely anything with a witness alone in a room with them.

A good thing then that Amanda wasn't alone in the room, but that a translator was there too.

 

[Mary_H]

A good thing then that Amanda wasn't alone in the room, but that a translator was there too.

A translator, employed by police, who was Italian and knows better than to claim police harassment. Besides, even if the translator took Amanda's side, she and Amanda would still be outnumbered by the police.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Looks like prof Pounder agrees with the 21:00 time of death

In general if all or almost all of the last meal is present
within the stomach then, in the absence of any unusual factors,
there is a reasonable medical certainty that death occurred
within 3 to 4 hours of eating.

What would be the unusual factors undermining that reasonable medical certainty? Severe injuries? Coma?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I find the resistance to believing what Amanda wrote very odd in light of the fact that her statement is often used to support arguments against her,

Why should we believe her...she's a proven liar? Liars use lies to serve what they believe are their interests. But they also mix lies with truth.

I also don't see why you are labouring the issue. Even Amanda who claims she was hit, admits they were not brutal, or painful. Yet you seem to want to paint it as torture. That's dishonest, as not only does it not match the known facts, it doesn't even match Amanda's (who you hold as the Gospel truth) version.

But anyway, to me this is all fluff...cuffs on the back of the head in any case do not in any way exculpate her from her false accusations against Patrick...accusations which were not 'mere' accusations, but a complete story.

 

[Fulcanelli]

A translator, employed by police, who was Italian and knows better than to claim police harassment. Besides, even if the translator took Amanda's side, she and Amanda would still be outnumbered by the police.

I see, a 'special police translator' that only gets their bonus if they turn a blind eye to the constant police brutality around them. It would be great in a novel, but it has no place in this debate.

However, it would be easily settled, were you able to provide evidence of previous cases of suspects being fitted up and abused in Perugia...after all, according to you people, criminals all have a past...so, do you have evidence of the criminality of the Perugian police? Or did they only ever, en masse, turn rogue when Amanda arrived?

 

[Mary_H]

Why should we believe her...she's a proven liar? Liars use lies to serve what they believe are their interests. But they also mix lies with truth.

I also don't see why you are labouring the issue. Even Amanda who claims she was hit, admits they were not brutal, or painful. Yet you seem to want to paint it as torture. That's dishonest, as not only does it not match the known facts, it doesn't even match Amanda's (who you hold as the Gospel truth) version.

But anyway, to me this is all fluff...cuffs on the back of the head in any case do not in any way exculpate her from her false accusations against Patrick...accusations which were not 'mere' accusations, but a complete story.

I have never painted it as torture. The extent of the abuse is not what is at issue here. We were debating whether or not Amanda told the truth about what happened. You want to change the subject.

BTW, Amanda is not a proven liar.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Looks like prof Pounder agrees with the 21:00 time of death


What would be the unusual factors undermining that reasonable medical certainty? Severe injuries? Coma?

Then you've not read him properly.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I have never painted it as torture. The extent of the abuse is not what is at issue here. We were debating whether or not Amanda told the truth about what happened. You want to change the subject.

BTW, Amanda is not a proven liar.

You have argued it as an 'excuse'. You have argued it as 'evidence' that the Perugian police are corrupt.

 

[Mary_H]

You have argued it as an 'excuse'. You have argued it as 'evidence' that the Perugian police are corrupt.

Can you provide citations for those claims? Hint: Look in the same place where I argued that Rudy climbed in the window.

 

[Fulcanelli]

That aside, you are up to your usual tricks of building that straw man and then deriding others for not knocking it down. Nobody said anything about the police translator having been around "constant police brutality," so there is nothing to "settle."

I see, so if they weren't around constant police brutality....there was no brutality (and so were not used to it)...but then all of a sudden, there was police brutality...Yet the Interpretor would not report that?

And...there was no constant police brutality....the police only ever became brutal on the appearance of Amanda Knox?

Please, explain why she's so special in order to explain this sudden shift from non-brutal police to brutal police.

 

[Katody Matrass]

But anyway, to me this is all fluff...cuffs on the back of the head in any case do not in any way exculpate her from her false accusations against Patrick...accusations which were not 'mere' accusations, but a complete story.

The question of cuffs is marginal indeed, and in any way doesn't change the fact that her statement was a textbook example of a coerced internalized false confession.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The question of cuffs is marginal indeed, and in any way doesn't change the fact that her statement was a textbook example of a coerced internalized false confession.

Evidence that...from the 'text books'. If it's text book, that shouldn't be a difficult assignment.

 

[Jungle Jim]

I agree that the semen stain on the bed sheet should have been tested. Even if the test can not determine when it was deposited, knowing who did so would be informative. However, I don’t see why the Raffaele’s defense attorneys would want it tested. If the stain is in fact semen there are three primary candidates: Meredith’s Italian boyfriend from downstairs, Rudy, or Raffaele. If the stain belongs to the Italian boy it’s meaningless because he was out of town the night of the murder. If it’s Rudy’s it doesn’t add much to the case because (i) we know he was in Meredith’s room (ii) we know that he assaulted Meredith; (iii) he has been convicted of taking part in her murder. If the stain belongs to Raffaele, then that posses a big problem for the defense.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Your arguments are usually not this simple-minded, Fulc. Are "constant police brutality" or "no police brutality" the only possibilities in this scenario?

Regardless of how many times the translator had been around police brutality -- none or some -- she is still unlikely to report it, even if she disagrees with it. For all we know, the other police officers disagreed with it, too.

On the other hand, the translator might have been perfectly okay with it. Amazer implied the translator would be on Amanda's side, but that is not necessarily the case.

Mary, you've not even been able to offer me evidence of anything in between. Three years now you guys in one form or one way or another have been gunning for the Perugia police...yet in all that time, have been able to provide not one single verified case of police brutality in Perigua. However, at the same time you demand that we take onnothing more then face value (faith) your assertion Knox was brutalised.

Do you see my problem with this?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I agree that the semen stain on the bed sheet should have been tested. Even if the test can not determine when it was deposited, knowing who did so would be informative. However, I don’t see why the Raffaele’s defense attorneys would want it tested. If the stain is in fact semen there are three primary candidates: Meredith’s Italian boyfriend from downstairs, Rudy, or Raffaele. If the stain belongs to the Italian boy it’s meaningless because he was out of town the night of the murder. If it’s Rudy’s it doesn’t add much to the case because (i) we know he was in Meredith’s room (ii) we know that he assaulted Meredith; (iii) he has been convicted of taking part in her murder. If the stain belongs to Raffaele, then that posses a big problem for the defense.

What semen stain? There is no known semen stain. There is a ''stain', on the pillow (not the bed sheet) which could be anything. Lots of things light up under a black light (including make-up and Vaseline...which one would expect to find on a girl's pillow).

Moreover, the matter of the stain wasn't even raised by the defence (the prosecution or lawyers for Meredith didn't know about it) until the last two weeks of an eleven month trial.

This was defence manoeuvring, not anything to do with real evidence.

 

[Solange305]

A translator, employed by police, who was Italian and knows better than to claim police harassment. Besides, even if the translator took Amanda's side, she and Amanda would still be outnumbered by the police.

That is your response Mary H.? Outnumbered by the police? What? That is a nonsensical response. You are really reaching there. I know you guys accuse what you call the "guilters" of handwaving things away, but do you realize how much you do it too? And how much you try to explain away things that may counter your argument?

Halides, Im sorry I haven't answered your post in regards to the DNA questions, I am not ignoring it. I honestly don't know the answers to those questions. I will try to do more research and keep what you said in mind.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary, you've not even been able to offer me evidence of anything in between. Three years now you guys in one form or one way or another have been gunning for the Perugia police...yet in all that time, have been able to provide not one single verified case of police brutality in Perigua. However, at the same time you demand that we take onnothing more then face value (faith) your assertion Knox was brutalised.

Do you see my problem with this?

Not that many innocentisti have had an ax to grind about the Perugian police having committed physical brutality. Go to page 100 of this thread, though, to see where we itemized police lies and acts of deception.

Well, it does boil down to faith, doesn't it? Amanda provided written claims and court testimony about what happened at the interrogation. You don't want to believe her. We do.

 

[Mary_H]

That is your response Mary H.? Outnumbered by the police? What? That is a nonsensical response. You are really reaching there. I know you guys accuse what you call the "guilters" of handwaving things away, but do you realize how much you do it too? And how much you try to explain away things that may counter your argument?

Yes, Solange, that is my response. Would you like to explain why you think it is nonsensical, and why you think I am reaching?

 

[Fulcanelli]

That observation could work for or against your position. The length of time it takes to debate something could suggest that a great many details are at issue but that there are no objective authorities present to put the issues to rest. It also could suggest that there are people with their minds made up, who will not allow themselves to be affected by facts.

In this case, though, all it suggests it that the trial was conducted two days a week and they took the summer off.

In this case, it's just that there was a 'lot of details'. Indeed, the period for the defence was much shorter then the period for the prosecution.

The court also spends the days between hearings to review the case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

testing the stain from Sollecito's point of view

I agree that the semen stain on the bed sheet should have been tested. Even if the test can not determine when it was deposited, knowing who did so would be informative. However, I don’t see why the Raffaele’s defense attorneys would want it tested. If the stain is in fact semen there are three primary candidates: Meredith’s Italian boyfriend from downstairs, Rudy, or Raffaele. If the stain belongs to the Italian boy it’s meaningless because he was out of town the night of the murder. If it’s Rudy’s it doesn’t add much to the case because (i) we know he was in Meredith’s room (ii) we know that he assaulted Meredith; (iii) he has been convicted of taking part in her murder. If the stain belongs to Raffaele, then that posses a big problem for the defense.

Jungle Jim,

If it were semen from Guede, it changes one picture of how he assaulted Meredith, apparently making the amount of sexual contact greater. Whether or not it becomes rape is a question for someone more familiar with Italian law than I am. If it is rape, then Guede's sentence should reflect it, IMO. It would also underscore how unusual the prosecution's picture of the crime really is. From what I have read, gang rape is a rare phenomenon.

Clearly Sollecito's defense team is confident that he is not the source of the possible semen.