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There is not a single mass grave of holohoax victims.

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Lurkers! Time once again to call on you to comment on another Dogzilla handwave!

Does the above reply from Dogzilla constitute a rational response to the following quote, from a speech by Heinrich Himmler at Sonthofen on 21 June 1944?

In this example, for him to say:
There's nothing here that says explicitly that there was an extermination policy.
... he'd have to argue that Himmler's statement:
It was the most horrible task and the most awful assignment that any organization could receive...

... It's good that we had the hardness to exterminate the Jews in our territory. Don't ask yourselves how difficult it would have been to carry out such an order, even though, as soldiers, I might say you would understand...
... was either a personal interpretation on Himmler's part and not government policy, or some sort of misstatement or misunderstanding of official policy by him. While that opinion would have the remote smell of being marginally possible in the absence of any other pieces of evidence, the fact of the matter is that the convergence of all other pieces of evidence point to the "assignment" as being a systemic, ordered one with resources provided from a high level in government. Or in short, even as a stand alone statement it more strongly points at systemic policy rather than anything else. In conjunction with all else that is known, though, it becomes a strong strand interwoven with other strands to very securely link the facts (statements/speeches, orders, constructed infrastructure, etc.) to the conclusion (the policy was indeed extermination). To argue otherwise is to say that, somehow, dozens of leaders high up in the Reich's hierarchy, thousands of Nazi government staff members, and untold hundreds of thousands to millions of rank-and-file Germans suddenly and simultaneously developed the same personal opinion:
No, we cannot shirk our responsibility to kill all the Jews. That would have been cowardly and therefore we adopted a clear solution to the problem, as difficult as it was.
And that would be asking us to swallow too much.

This is what convergence of evidence means. There's no such thing as a single, stand alone exculpating or damning piece of evidence for something as broad as the Holocaust. It's the cumulation of the facts and the overall direction all those facts point in that leads us to the conclusions we have. Isolated, vague handwaves about translations combined with nitpicks about "explicit statements" are nothing more than minute shadows thrown onto the mountain of evidence to try and create the illusion of a dim and unclear mass. No shadow cast by the deniers is sufficient to obscure the mountain.
 
Of course, Nick already knows what I just wrote. Certainly, he knows far better than I do where Holocaust history is concerned. I'm addressing anyone who reads this thread, including and especially aimed at new folks who may be unfamiliar with conspiratorial distortions of established history.
 
Would it be good for the world to know that Holocaust deniers admit they have no evidence as you have done?

What I'd like to know is, if the Holocaust did not happen, how Holocaust history became as detailed and developed as it did in the absence of the event. Saying that it's a conspiracy of governments or the Jews ignores the accusation leveled at historians and careful students of the subject, like Nick above and Matthew Ellard in the other threads. It suggests that they're either part of the conspiracy to propogate that supposedly false history themselves, or that their scholarship is deficient. The first would be nothing more than character assasination, and the second would be revealed through free debate, such as is occuring here. To be blunt, the free debate we're seeing here isn't even beginning to cast doubt on Nick's scholarship.
 
Lurkers! Time once again to call on you to comment on another Dogzilla handwave!

Does the above reply from Dogzilla constitute a rational response to the following quote, from a speech by Heinrich Himmler at Sonthofen on 21 June 1944?

Nope.
 
Not at all - he like all haters cannot explain where all the Jews, Roma and others 'went to'. Where did all the Soviet POWS go to? In all the Nazi extermination did in well over 12+ million people.

So hand wave not accepted. Explain in detail Dogzilla (be the first to do so) where these people went if not slaughtered by the Nazis in their Hitler directed extermination actions.

What happened to the Soviet POWs is the same thing that happened to the German POWs in the Soviet Union.

I can't explain in detail where these twelve million people you're talking about went. Twelve million people can die without being slaughtered by the Nazis. The Nazis can kill twelve million people without an extermination program. Can you explain in detail where these twelve million people came from and how you know they were slaughtered by the Nazis?

There was a war at that time. Lots of people died.

By the way my father was at the liberation of three of those camps

Busy man. Whose army?
 
Would it be good for the world to know that Holocaust deniers admit they have no evidence as you have done?

The people of the world know that it's not possible to prove the holocaust didn't happen. Would it be good for the world to know that supporters of the holocaust demand evidence which cannot exist and then declare victory when the impossible is not forthcoming?
 
And yet, if you go "elsewhere", you don't find very many Jews.

If you know where to look you do. If you look for Jews in the same spot they used to be in Europe you won't find many. If you look for ethnic Germans everywhere they used to be Europe you won't find many either. Were they all exterminated?
 
If you know where to look you do. If you look for Jews in the same spot they used to be in Europe you won't find many. If you look for ethnic Germans everywhere they used to be Europe you won't find many either. Were they all exterminated?

You can't be serious. Are you seriously saying that of the roughly six million Jews who "went missing" after the war a significant fraction of them were alive, but overlooked somewhere? Really?


We know where the Germans went. What about the Jews?
 
Lurkers! Time once again to call on you to comment on another Dogzilla handwave!

Does the above reply from Dogzilla constitute a rational response to the following quote, from a speech by Heinrich Himmler at Sonthofen on 21 June 1944?

Not at all, as with all of his posts. He disregards all mainstream evidence as lies and fabrication, while accepting the flimsiest of denier claims with an "open mind". FAIL!
 
By providing direct evidence of a policy of extermination. It isn't possible to shoot 1 million people of an ethnic minority while your leadership are publicly screaming about Ausrottung and Vernichtung on practically a weekly basis, and for the evidence of 1 million shot to death not to constitute evidence of a policy of extermination.

In fact, there is documentary evidence showing far more than 1 million were shot, there is also documentary evidence - which you have handwaved away - that this was state policy, as outlined by very high level Nazis like Himmler, and there is documentary evidence of gassing.

There is documentary evidence of shooting. There is evidence that shooting was part of state policy. I have never denied that. Will some of the lurkers help Nick out here? Explain how evidence of shooting is evidence of gassings?


It follows quite naturally that if the Nazis were capable of shooting 1 million Jews, that they were also capable of killing 5 million Jews by a combination of means. Once the threshold into seven figures is crossed, then this can no longer be explained away by references to executing spies.

So they did it because they could have done it? You need to stop conflating evidence of something with evidence of gassings. We know the Soviets were quite capable of shooting masses of people. How is that not evidence of Soviet gas chambers?


Nice people, the Nazis.

Nobody said they were.


I didn't. I contrasted an entirely explicit document which indicates that 97,000 had been 'processed' by gas vans at Chelmno with a document that used a euphemism, Sondebehandlung, to describe the intended fate of a quota of 100,000 Jews living in the same region as Chelmno. You failed to explain this remarkable convergence of numbers.

Is this one of the two documents that I should have known about?


It is however true that Sonderbehandlung can also be decoded by examining a great many other documents where the term is used interchangeably with execution, liquidation etc, so that we can be fairly sure that even where we find it standing on its lonesome, it means execution.

I know of one use of Sonderbehandlung in a context where it unequivocally does not mean killing. This was in 1939, and it appeared in a thinkpiece drawn up by members of the Racial Political Office of the NSDAP, ie a civilian Party agency.

Prior to 1939 did Sonderbehandlung mean killing? Are there documents where Sonderbehandlung did not unequivocally mean killing?


Actually the Nazis - please stop calling them Germans - used a variety of terms. They spoke of Evakuierungen, evacuations, on many occasions. Depending on the context, this might well be a true event - the Nazis did after all evacuate more than 1 million Russians westward from the combat zone in 1945 - or it might be used euphemistically.

The Nazis also used Umsiedlung - resettlement - and Aussiedlung - out-settlement.

So how was one suppose to know what the true meaning of a word that was used euphemistically? Did everybody know that certain words might be euphemisms and that the real meaning of the word needed to be determined by the context? Do we know of any situations where a euphemism was misunderstood and the incorrect action was taken?


Context might include the use of inverted commas in the original text. If a document says nach der 'Judenumsiedlung' and puts the word Judenumsiedlung in inverted commas, then this has obviously been demarcated as a euphemism.

If the Nazis had used pig Latin instead of developing enigma, this might be believable. The Nazis clearly marked words that were euphemisms? How was the reader to know what the real meaning of the word was?

But no, I don't claim that every use of resettlement or evacuation implies killing. In some cases the term is used as an obvious euphemism, as in the above example. In others it is a half-truth. Jews were evacuated to Auschwitz. But not all the deportees were killed on arrival. So the use of a phrase like Evakuierung nach Auschwitz simply conveys the bare essential information for the intended purpose - coordinating deportations, usually - while omitting the intended fate. This becomes clear from other sources.

You're describing a communication channel that could not work in any military or military like organization. Words have precise meanings. Everybody needs to know what those precise meanings are. If Batman were explaining to Robin that he had intercepted a communique between the Riddler and the Joker and pointed to certain words set off by single quotes as words that have a secret meaning, it would typical Batman camp. But in Nazi Germany?

If this euphemistic language was so obvious, why did they even bother with it?

The Holocaust was a criminal conspiracy, and the Nazis demonstrably covered up their actual actions. They screamed about Ausrottung and Vernichtung of the Jews in public then went entirely quiet on what they were doing. No press reports appeared in the Voelkische Beobachter reporting on the deportations, let alone what was going on in the east.

Behind closed doors, the Nazis used explicit language quite a lot, but they also used euphemisms. Sometimes this was to restrict knowledge on a need-to-know basis, but more often this was purely for their own psychological well-being, since it is easier to carry out mass murder if you use euphemisms.

They were explicit in public but used euphemism in private? Would you expect there to be press reports about deportations of Jews? Were all resettlements mentioned in the press?

And what pop-psychology guru did you learn about mass murderers using euphemisms to make killing easier? I thought the Nazis were evil bastards down to their core. Are you now saying that they were human and had human emotions?


The Nazis also used the term liquidation - as we saw in the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942, which you avoided just as you avoided Himmler's Sonthofen speech.

I don't avoid them. I don't find them particularly relevant. I don't dispute that the Nazis were bad people who hated the Jews. I don't think it's clear that there was a policy to exterminate all the Jews and more and more quotes from Nazis that sound bad do not an extermination policy make.

I think the euphemism theory of communication if it were advanced in any other context would be seen for what it is: a silly conspiracy theory.

But at the end of the day, what the Nazis said explicitly or non explicitly doesn't matter. As long as there are no mass graves at the death camps that can hold all the bodies, all those people weren't killed there. Period.
 
Obfuscation at its finest.

I expect the SS men to explain what happened as they saw it from their vantage point. I don't expect lowly privates to know exact numbers, I do expect them to know, if they served at a camp like Auschwitz, what the general procedures were for handling arriving Jewish deportation transports. This is a qualitative, not a quantitative issue. The higher one goes up the chain of command inside Auschwitz, then the more one would expect them to know about how the camp operated.

You are expecting the SS to argue from ignorance, in essence. What could they get away with, seems to be your underlying assumption. Actually, in May 1945 they could not reasonably get away with claiming that Jewish transports arriving in Auschwitz weren't selected. An ever growing number of Auschwitz survivors were offering their testimonies to this specific point: they arrived on trains with 1000 or 2000 or 3000 people, were greeted on the ramp by SS men, who sorted them out, sending one column into the camp and the other... to the gas chambers.

That was the SOP. If it wasn't, then one expects that someone would describe the actual SOP. But they didn't, because it didn't exist.

Here we have an excellent example that illustrates why I "dismiss with a handwave" all the remarkable corroboration of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that so many Germans even admit to involvement in the extermination process.

You believe that by May 1945, it wouldn't be possible for a guard to get away with claiming Jews were not selected upon arrival at Auschwitz. Thousands of Jews arriving in the camp were subjected to this selection process and had testified to what they experienced. You probably have hundreds of German who have confessed to participating in this process as well.

You would expect all the testimony to corroborate and for no German to deny the selections because the selections were SOP. Jews were seperated by sex and/or ability to work. Some groups were sent in the direction of a big building with smokestacks. Some were sent somewhere else. You had the durchgangjuden who came into the camp and weren't registered before being sent somewhere else. Families and neighbors from the same ghetto were seperated. Everybody was describing the same thing. Of course the descriptions are similar!

But they were describing selections, not extermination. There's no reason to deny the selections. There's nothing nefarious about them. Only by presuming extermination does the selections become part of the extermination process.

You can probably point to remarkable corroboration of testimony on the other end of the extermination process as well. You have at least a couple of hundred eyewitnesses who saw dead Jews in the gas chamber. You have remarkable corroboration among the eyewitnesses who describe the interior of the gas chamber. You also have quite a few former sondercommando who actually hauled bodies out of the gas chamber and into the crematorium to be incinerated. Those people are also describing real events. The descriptions of the interior of the gas chamber are remarkably similar because they're describing the same room--the room that is labeled "Leichenkeller" on the blueprints of the Birkinau krema. That's also why descriptions of the bodies piled up in the gas chambers are remarkably similar. One would expect dead bodies in a leichenkeller. And of course there's nothing exterminational about hauling bodies from a leichenkeller to an incinerator.

How many eyewitnesses actually saw a gassing--not selecting Jews for work or hauling bodies from the morgue to the incinerator--but actual gassingsfrom beginning to end? They saw Jews walk into the gas chamber, saw the Zyklon B dropped or thrown into the room, waited until all were dead and then saw the bodies being removed? Those witnesses are very few and far between.

If you look critically and objectively at all the eyewitness testimony you'll see that much of it is describing ordinary events that have been retrofitted to mean extermination. It's not evidence of extermination unless you presuppose an extermination policy.

But you didn't answer the question, how many interrogations were conducted before the tragic loss of European Jewry was really understood?
 
You can't be serious. Are you seriously saying that of the roughly six million Jews who "went missing" after the war a significant fraction of them were alive, but overlooked somewhere? Really?


We know where the Germans went. What about the Jews?

You seriously don't know where Jews went after the war? Let me ask you and everybody else here. How many Jews were there left at the end of the war in Europe?
 
You seriously don't know where Jews went after the war? Let me ask you and everybody else here. How many Jews were there left at the end of the war in Europe?

Roughly six million less than when it started.

I'm not going to look it up, but I think that meant about 5 million, mostly in the Soviet Union. (If I recall correctly, Eichmann estimated the Jewish population of Europe to be at 11 million, but I'm not sure what portion of the Soviet Union was included in that total, and of course the Einsatzgruppen and their partners had already been hard at work by that time.)The vast majority that started the war in Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia (listed as Judenfrei at Wannsee) and Holland were dead. There were extremely high casualties among Hungarian, Romanian, Ukranian, Greek, French, Italian, and some other countries. If I recall most Danish Jews survived, and of course those in Britain and Ireland were untouched, except those who were ordinary war casualties.

Numbers of Roma dead range as high as 1.5 million, but some estimates are much lower.

After the war was over, almost none stayed in Poland and very few in Germany. Some returned to their homes in France and Holland. Some, went to Palestine/Israel, and there was significant immigration to the United States.

Meanwhile, many ethnic Germans were forced out of their homes in what is today Poland.

ETA: And all of those numbers are from memory, so who cares if the numbers are off by a few million here or there. The point is that a whole bunch, and I mean by either percentage or absolute, were just plain dead.
 
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Several million fewer than at the start of the war in Europe, according to every rational, reliable source I've ever seen. Now which is a more likely spot for them to have ended up by the end of the war in Europe, unmarked mass graves/ash burial sites, or some kind of Jewish Shangri-la in Outer Mongolia?
 
You're describing a communication channel that could not work in any military or military like organization. Words have precise meanings.

Which is why no one ever says anything like "collateral damage" when they mean, "civilians blown to bits by bombs."

As long as there are no mass graves at the death camps that can hold all the bodies, all those people weren't killed there. Period.

I just can't come up with a word that has a precise enough meaning to describe the above comment. Words like "idiocy" are so vague.
 
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Dogzilla said:
How many Jews were there left at the end of the war in Europe?

Nuremberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953., Vol. XIII, p. 210, Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference

II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich Marshal [Goering] to service as Commissioner for the preparation of the Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem....
In the course of this final solution of the European Jewish Problem, approximately 11 million Jews are involved. They are distributed among individual countries as follows:

A. Original Reich Territory [Altreich] 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
Government General [Nazi occupied Poland] 2,284,000
The Netherlands 160,800
Rumania, including Bessarabia 342,000
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
White Russia, excluding Bialystok 446,484
[Many countries deleted for brevity]
TOTAL over 11,000,000

Post War (Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown, country by country)

Numbers of missing Jews (post-war minus pre-war):
Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxembourg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews that were exterminated 5,721,500

To cut you off before your next silly claim.....
370,000 Jews in Palestine in 1937, and 600,000 in 1948
 
The people of the world know that it's not possible to prove the holocaust didn't happen. Would it be good for the world to know that supporters of the holocaust demand evidence which cannot exist and then declare victory when the impossible is not forthcoming?

The question has no meaning seeing as there is so much evidence for it. It's a bit hard to be concerned about such an irrelevant hypothetical, what with all the mass graves and all. Let's not pretend you've engaged in any real research or scholarship here. You're playing it like a little boy who tries on his father's work clothes and plays at going to the office. Find a new hobby as this topic is too serious and deserves better than the weak scholarship you can provide.
 
What happened to the Soviet POWs is the same thing that happened to the German POWs in the Soviet Union.

Yes the Soviets exterminated them and the German exterminated the Soviets but for some odd reason you don't believe the Germans exterminated the Jews....how odd

I can't explain in detail where these twelve million people you're talking about went. Twelve million people can die without being slaughtered by the Nazis.

Or they can be exterminated by the Nazis your point?


The Nazis can kill twelve million people without an extermination program.

Man that was a lot of accidents......


There was a war at that time. Lots of people died.

Many being exterminated by the Nazis

Oh my as I thought you would ignored the hard part.... here it is again - debunk it line by line Dogzilla...I'll just keep repeating it until you do but then we both know you cannot which is why you try to avoid it.....but then you won't be able too....quite a problem for your hate filled world view eh? LOL

What your hero Himmler said

"It was necessary to resolve another big question. It was the most horrible task and the most awful assignment that any organization could receive: the solution of the Jewish question. I want to say a few words on the matter to this group with complete candor. It's good that we had the hardness to exterminate the Jews in our territory. Don't ask yourselves how difficult it would have been to carry out such an order, even though, as soldiers, I might say you would understand. But thinking critically as German soldiers, you can see that the order was essential. Because we wouldn't have been able to withstand the aerial bombing if we had had the Jews in our cities. I am also convinced we would not have been able to hold the Lemberg front of the Generalgouvernement if the big ghettos in Lemberg, Krakau, Lublin, and Warsaw had still been there. We cleaned out the last one, the big ghetto in Warsaw, in summer 1943. In Warsaw there were 500,000 Jews. I tell you this number confidentially. It took us five weeks of street fighting. Just the same, I want to answer a little question that surely you must have. The question is, of course you had to kill the adult Jews, I understand that, but how could you do the same to the women and children? So I have to tell you something: The children will be grown one day. Do we want to be so improper that we say, no, no, we're too weak to kill children. Our children can deal with them. Our children will fight that one out. But the Jewish hate, small today, will be big tomorrow, and the grown avengers will attack our children and grandchildren, who will then have to deal with them. I am convinced that this will be the case even if Adolf Hitler does not survive. No, we cannot shirk our responsibility to kill all the Jews. That would have been cowardly and therefore we adopted a clear solution to the problem, as difficult as it was. "
 
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